Wednesday, April 8, 2015

Bicycle Fit, Comfort, and the Ever-Changing You

Mercian in the Field
A friend had recently returned to roadcycling after an absence of several years. He bought a very nice secondhand bicycle, which was professionally set up for him by a bike shop. The bike seemed to fit him well and felt comfortable during an initial 10 mile spin down the road. Shortly thereafter I joined him on a 30 mile ride. Everything was grand at first. Then, around the half-way point, my friend began to experience discomfort. It started with soreness in the saddle. Then back pain. Then tingling and pain in the hands. As we continued to cycle, his discomfort grew from mild to unbearable, forcing us eventually to take a shortcut and shave some miles off the route originally planned. In the end my friend was crestfallen: The bicycle that at first felt so good had turned into a torture device. He started theorising about the fit issues that could be causing his pains. Should he alter his saddle's setback? handlebar height? stem length?

But, having watched him pedal beside me, my intuition told me there was nothing actually wrong with the way his bicycle fit him. His back was at an angle that "looked right." He wasn't shifting about restlessly, as if uncomfortable with his saddle's position or his handlebar reach. Neither was he hunching his shoulders or extending his arms rigidly. Furthermore, my friend is a fit man with good muscle tone. My suspicion was, his position was fine - he just needed a bit more time in the saddle.

So, when he asked my opinion, I said "Look. I am no expert in bike fit. But you may want to give it another couple of rides, increasing your distance more gradually - then see if you're still getting these pains."

Somewhat to my surprise, he listened to me. Then two weeks later we set off on the same 30 mile route we'd previously attempted. His bike - to which he hadn't done a thing since the last time - felt great throughout the ride. No sore behind, no back pain, no tingling hands this time.

Naturally, I was delighted for him - as well as relieved I'd judged the situation correctly! After all, ignoring discomfort and pain that arise from genuine fit issues can not only discourage a person from cycling, it can lead to damage and injury. The question is, how do we know when the discomfort is worth "riding out," and when it requires making adjustments to bike fit? Of all the questions pertaining to fit and comfort, this is one I seldom see addressed. We talk all to easily of making changes to the bike. But what about the ever-changing rider? It is only logical that changes in our bike-specific as well as general fitness will effect how comfortable we are in the saddle.

In myself I have observed this process in action both in the short term and in the long term. Every spring, when I go out on my first "proper" long hilly ride, I will experience a variety of annoying discomforts. Almost certainly my butt will feel sore if I increase my distance too quickly. Over hilly terrain, sometimes my back will start to hurt if I attempt to push the pace up inclines. And toward the end of the ride, indeed my hands might tingle or feel numb. This does not mean that my bicycle suddenly doesn't fit me as well as it used to. It just means my body has grown unaccustomed to long distance and/or intense cycling. Invariably, after the 2nd or 3rd long ride these early-season discomforts disappear, and my roadbike, once again, feels like a seamless extension of my body.

As I continue cycling year after year, I notice more sustained changes as well. As I've grown stronger, hills no longer hurt my legs in the way they once did and I can push a higher gear. A persistent ache in my lower back that I'd suffered for years on long inclines finally disappeared entirely as I developed greater core strength (see this earlier post on "climbing muscles"). Thanks to an increase in upper body strength and flexibility, I hardly ever feel pressure on my hands anymore, and can spend more time in the drop position than I used to. Even my sense of balance has improved as a result of all these changes. To be sure, my own changing body has been just as influential in my level of comfort on the bike as any tweaks I've made to the bike itself.

So, how do such changes come about? For the most part through cycling, cycling, and more cycling - in particular, the sort of intense, effortful cycling that pushes the boundaries of our current abilities and comfort zones. The changes can also be hastened, or supplemented, through other physical activities that promote overall fitness and muscle tone - whether it's running, scrambling up and down mountains, or (gulp) weight lifting.

Don't get me wrong, dear reader, I'm not suggesting that cyclists "ought to" do any these things in order to feel comfortable on the bike. I only started doing some of them myself this past year because I genuinely enjoy them. All the same, it is worth pointing out that building up our own strength is an approach to on-the-bike comfort that is no less valid than tinkering with a bicycle's fit.

Getting back to the question of knowing when discomfort can be overcome by our own acclimatisation, and when it necessitates making changes to the bike: Obviously there is a lot to be said for individual differences here. To a large extent it is really a matter of knowing thyself - being aware of what your body is telling you, recognising your patterns from one year to the next. And while some types of pain disappear with increased fitness, others (some of the more obvious I can think of being knee pain and genital numbness) are more obvious indicators of bad positioning and should not be ignored. When in doubt, seek professional advice from a bicycle shop or fitter you trust. Your mileage, like your on-the-bike comfort, may vary.

51 comments:

  1. This post is timed perfectly. I'm sitting here, having spent a week off the bike because of reoccurring knee pain, and thinking about what the cause could be. Are my crank arms too long? Did I just "overdo" it? Is it the culmination of several isolated incidents that have amounted to a substantial injury? I don't know. I can only wait, see what a doctor has to say, and unfortunately, refrain from riding. It's a rather depressing state, especially since the weather has been improving.

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    1. On another note, the straightness of the horizon line underneath the top tube in the photo above is remarkable.

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    2. Ha, thank you for noticing!

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  2. I always thought it meant is was time for another bike. :P

    It's a tough call. As someone who doesn't have a blog and the luxary of trying out several products within a relatively short time unless we're talking saddle adjustment but not the whole saddle, I often find myself having to "ride it out" unless it's something that is really uncomfortable. And even then, there is no guaranty that my next choice will be any better until I've already bought and paid for it.
    It's similar to that conundrum of recommending to someone that spending what they might consider a lot of money on a bike, is kind of necessary, to get a reasonably good bike, to make the experience a good one. Yet, no one wants to or can spend the money to invest in something that they're not sure about.

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    1. This is true. I sold my first utility bicycle and my first roadbike just over a year after purchase. Despite having seemed perfect 'on paper' and despite multiple tweaks, they just weren't right for me. By contrast, my current utility bike & roadbike are now over 3 years old, have had almost no tweaks, and I couldn't be happier with them. And while of course I benefit from the experience of long term test ride opportunities I get through the blog, to some extent it's still trial and error. For instance, after test riding a Brompton for the blog my conclusion was it was a cool bike, but probably not for me. Then a year later my ex husband decided to buy one, and talked me into getting one as well so that we'd have a pair for travel. Nothing about my earlier test ride experiences predicted the Brompton would soon become my main transport bike, but that was exactly what happened. Sometimes you just don't know until you take the risk. The good news is that nice bikes have decent resale value.

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    2. One bike is super efficient and one bike is super utilitarian while being somewhat efficient.

      Those other bikes were vintage for a reason - refined 2015 tech is better. What a surprise.

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  3. I'm glad your friend didn't succumb to the idea that something was drastically wrong because it was uncomfortable. I can think of lot's of people who I sold bikes to that I thought were really going to enjoy cycling who never got past the first few uncomfortable hours and parked their shiny new Fuji or Cannondale in the garage never to try again.

    One of my sisters has knee problems that make walking painful and as a result she doesn't get much exercise which contributes to her Knee problems and other health issues. I set up a good older Hybrid/MTN Bike for her but she rode it for about 5 minutes one time and got off because it "Hurt almost as bad as walking". The argument that "Almost as bad as walking means a little better, right? So... why not?" didn't get any traction and the observation that "riding even 5 minutes at a time will soon make it easier and less painful and soon after that you'll be able to ride much more and ENJOY it and maybe even walk easier" just made me look like the "Know It All Little Brother" who just doesn't get it. I know we were both standing there disappointed and frustrated, she with her hopes for an easy, comfortable way to get some exercise dashed and me thinking "If you could only endure a little low grade agony for a week or so you would soon find your wings and be able to fly a bit instead of having to hobble and limp in misery for ever..." There we stood, looking at the same bike, pondering different but very real "Vicious Cycles" and not getting a laugh from the Irony.

    I think there are 2 different ideas about cycling that many people manage to hold simultaneously, the first is that riding a bike is too difficult and uncomfortable to do as transportation or utility but that for recreation it should be effortless and simple.On the face of it those assumptions don't play well together but it does' seem to pass for common sense. I've been told by more than one non-cycling person around my own age to be thankful that I was born with good knees or I wouldn't be able to ride my bikes for fun anymore. Makes me want to jump around and have a little freakout. Every time...

    Spindizzy

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    1. The Gumtree (local version of Craigslist) ads in my area are replete with barely used roadbikes abandoned after a coupe months of ownership. What happens here is people who see cycling solely as a sport try to go from spinning classes straight to club rides. So they buy a new bike, shoes, accessories, get a professional fit, and expect that everything will feel great. But with zero road experience it doesn’t. And since they aren’t willing to spend time in the saddle outside of the weekly club rides, the comfort factor is slow to improve. On the upside, it is very easy to buy a nice secondhand bike here.

      "there are 2 different ideas about cycling that many people manage to hold simultaneously, the first is that riding a bike is too difficult and uncomfortable to do as transportation or utility but that for recreation it should be effortless and simple."

      This is a very good point. I think when non-cyclists imagine recreational cycling, they visualise the care-free wind-in-your hair, sunny country roads thing. Then they join a cycling club and are shocked with the spandexy, paceline, pushing your pace till you puke thing. But it's hard to say where the problem lies: in unreasonable expectations, or in the lack of variety in the types of cycling clubs?

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  4. Interesting question. I have a bicycle I'm on the fence about for this precise reason. It doesn't feel as good as my Raleigh, but I'm not sure if this is because it's new, needs more fiddling and adjusting, or really isn't right. Your friend's experience has given me hope, though, so I'll give it some more time. Helpful as always!

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    1. They are Ibex Break-away pants - heavy wool with windproof, waterproof panels on the front; I have the same ones only the women's version. Very comfortable and warm, though the styling is on the dorky side.

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  6. My rule of thumb is that if something is uncomfortable for me after a third ride of 50 km or more, it has to be changed. Of course, I don't claim that because it's worked for me, it will work for everybody.

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    1. I'd say it's similar for me, though it's really a matter of intuition more than anything.

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  7. Your friend had a case of thinking he’s fit now for whatever he’s been fit for before. Happens to even the most pessimistic recreational athletes. My knees needed two days to recover from a 200 km brevet a few weeks ago—175 miles with getting lost and riding to and from the event—and I was surprised because I did a harder ride a year ago on the same bike set up the same way. But by that time last year I’d ridden several races and a century and run a half marathon and was riding 20 miles every day before riding to work! Life’s different this year and I’m not nearly so fit. But I blithely figured, I’ve done it before, so I must be up to it. And I’ve been making the same mistake forever. When I was 16 I decided to make my first spring ride of the year a 110 miler, out and back. The 55 miles out were a thrill with a tail wind, on my new 1983 Colnago Super with the sew-up wheels I’d built myself with instructions from the great old Bicycling Magazine. The same wind made my cry and stop and sit on the ground half way back. I had half-step gearing, which I learned to set up from the same magnificent publication, and which meant my lowest gear was not very low. I had been able to do such things painlessly at the end of the previous season, you see. So I’ve never learned. And I’m the sort who thinks I’m always in pretty bad shape. You don’t even have to be guilty of unusual hubris to make this type of mistake. It’s just that going back to easier, shorter rides—the kind you’re actually fit for now, when other matters have interfered with your cycling—feels so undignified.

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  8. "...knee pain and genital numbness) are more obvious indicators of bad positioning and should not be ignored"

    My wife has great difficulty dialing in her position on any bike, and this is the main reason why. Saddle too high and she gets numb; saddle too low and she gets knee pain. We've tried for years to set up her bike just right, but it is always either one or the other. Shame, because it means our family rides are limited to 10-15 miles.

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    1. Hi Mark,

      We have exactly the same problem. My wife doesn't ride much but when she does she has a lot of trouble staying comfortable in just the way you describe. If she rode more than the occasional 1/2 hour spin or 20 mile rail trail I think it would clear up but she's more into other things. Our solution is just to raise or lower the saddle every once in a while. Sometimes that means we adjust it 2 or 3 times in an hour and a half, which seems crazy until you think about not getting to ride together at all, then it seems like a pretty good deal.

      Good luck...

      Spindizzy

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    2. I get numb "down there" but only on bicycles with drop bars. I have tried bicycle fitters, frames with different geometry, women's saddles, nothing helps. So I guess I'll stick with my old Gitane mixte and leave the club rides to the more physically tolerant!

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    3. I am extremely grateful to have been spared "down there" numbness issues, especially as it seems such a tricky one to find a solution for.

      If I might make a suggestion, one thing worth considering is the shape (not just the width) of your saddle. In particular look at the way the sides of your saddle slope down from its sitting surface. I'm not quite sure how to describe this properly, but if you examine the shapes of various saddles you will see that some have a "domed" form to them, so that the sitting surface is curved, gradually giving way to the sides, whereas others have more of a flat sitting surface. When a woman I know personally tells me she had numbness issues not resolved by saddle position adjustment, and I look at the saddle she's riding, invariably it's a "domed" saddle. My theory is that the curved sitting surface forms a ridge that pushes up into the soft tissue and causes the numbness. I could be wrong of course, but if you're having these problems it's a theory worth testing anyway.

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    4. That is interesting V, any chance you could post some photos of the types of saddles you mean?

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    5. I'm sorta searching for a saddle and was wondering which might be best. There are so many choices! Anyway, I was on the Prologo site and they explained some of the differences in their models, including round, semi-round, and flat saddles. Can't say it cleared anything up, but worth looking at. I wish more bike shops had saddle libraries….most fitters do.

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    6. Speaking of comfort and saddles, just found this….A place that seems to be doing it right!
      http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/04/14/shop-profile-and-interview-gladys-bikes-and-leah-benson/

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    7. If saddle height is that much of an issue, has she ever considered a recumbent? The knees might not like it though, as there's no getting out of the saddle for a bit of assistance. But gearing is usually low. I can vouch for the recumbent position being very comfortable.

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    8. Hi Spin (and Mark too)

      I'm quite confident your wife can ride.

      Adjusting the saddle up and down has only second order effects on knee stress. Fore-aft adjustments are what's needed. The rule of thumb has always been pain at the front of the knee means the seat is too forward, pain at the back of the knee means the seat is too far back. I already know the pain is at the front of the knee. The only way to get back of knee pain is to go do a long fast club ride on a DL-1. (Now how would I know that?). Before continuing with diagnostics this is a good time to point out that pedalling out of the saddle and especially pedalling out of the saddle and climbing puts the knee very far forward and most anyone can damage their knees that way.

      A DL-1 or a DL-1L is your diagnostic tool. If no DL-1 is available many older Schwinns had very lax saddle angles. What you are looking for is a bike with lots and lots and lots of saddle setback. Forget exact measurements for now. Big setback by eyeball. Try riding with huge setback, with the primary cause of knee pain eliminated, and see how your wife does. The chances are this will work and all that's left is discovering how much of lots and lots is really necessary.

      If riding with buckets of setback does not do it then it will be harder but still possible. The one thing you say that's a bit unusual is that the pain comes on quick. Cyclist knee trauma is most often an overuse (longterm abuse) issue. It is possible your wife has a medical condition called Bad Knees. She can still ride. Simply apply no pedal force for the arc of the pedal stroke where the pain arises. Same principle as you can't get cyclists' palsy (ulnar nerve trauma) while riding a unicycle. Some examples:

      One of my favorite demonstrations is pedalling along one-legged on a fixie with flat pedals. Then I take my foot entirely off the pedal from one o'clock to five o'clock. And accelerate.
      Once I seriously blew out both knees climbing Mt. Washington in 42x28. When it's that hard there's a tendency to forget everything you know about pedalling and form and revert to the stupid basics of standing on the pedals and lunging. That's what I did. It was hard to stand afterwards and impossible to walk much. Driving a car was too exciting. So I rode the bike everywhere. Always thinking about lifting the pedals. And exerting no force from 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock. Where it hurt. I rode the bike every day and healed.

      There's an intertoobs meme that says it's not really possible to lift the pedal because psoas muscle. Let me tell you that back when Torchy Peden could break steel track cranks at will he was doing that on the upstroke. You are never going to have the long lean calves of a Bobet or a Coppi except by refraining from pedal pressure. Generations of riders were taught to abhor pedal pressure. I'm one of them.

      I've spent just enough time on instrumented pedals to know that what you think you're doing is not the same as what the dials and gauges say is really happening. I think I'm lifting the pedal and the numbers say it's more like I'm dragging the pedal back from 5 o'clock to 9 o'clock. Fine. No load on the knee for that pull. If anything that pull spreads the knee.

      The name of the game is Chess On Wheels. Now go show your wife you're smarter than some dumb bike.


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  9. But I do think it comes with an addendum of "do not let a bike store tell you just to ride more." If you cannot actually ride enough to add fitness because of pain, you're not going to get anywhere.

    For me, hand pain is fairly strongly related to reach and hand position -- too small of a bike, and OW. I kept getting told that riding more would help, which no matter how much I sucked it up and tried, it didn't. Later, in excellent shape, I rented a road bike on a business trip, and they were out of my size; I let them rent me one smaller (which they were claiming was the correct size for me anyway, but it was not). Same excruciating pain, though I toughed it out because I wanted to go for a ride. So riding more wouldn't have fixed it after all -- yes, being stronger took a fair bit of weight off my hands, but if they're at the wrong angle, any amount of weight is too much.

    Other things I am more tolerant of -- it turned out the saddle on my road bike had slipped over an inch, and I didn't notice until my saddlebag stopped fitting between the seat and the fender.

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    1. Ha, I definitely notice any change in saddle hight or setback position. On the other hand, I once rode home 15 miles with my handlebars rotated at a crazy angle (didn't tighten them enough after having fiddled with the bike) and only noticed the following morning.

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  10. My chiropractor would say if you are having tingling down your legs to your feet or arms to your hands, there is something wrong. You should change position then or stop and get off - don't wait. If those symptoms persist, it can aggravate the situation, making it worse. Sometimes it can't be fixed if symptoms persist too long. That being said, I've found that changing bike geometry can have a negative feeling the first 1-2 times out, depending on the distance and if you have a previous injury or back/neck problem. I don't tolerate bad pain on a bike. I stop and move the saddle or change position often until I can make it back. Then I take a hard look at the bike's setup and geometry.

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  11. Please tell me the "very nice secondhand bicycle" he bought was not your lovely Mercian!

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    1. This bike looks a little small for this dude on a thirty mile ride.

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    2. I used to get tingling down my arms after longer rides, it got worse and worse till it would be all over and accompanied by some mild hallucinations. I'd have to periodically get off the bike and lay down for a bit. When it got to the point I would end up on the shoulder sort of drifting in and out of consciousness I finally went to a Doctor. Turned out I just needed to wash out my bottles.

      I sort of miss it...

      Timothy Spinleery

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    3. " some mild hallucinations"

      That only means you're doing it right, Timothy.

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  12. I read this with some interest; I'd laid off the biking nearly all winter and wondered what sort of adjustments I'd have to make to the road bike to deal with my lack of conditioning. Funnily enough, very little ones, and mostly saddle position related. The rest is all rusty legs!
    Then yesterday, I went to go satisfy my curiosity at a local bike shop. I test-rode four entry to mid-level utility cyclocross bikes, three aluminum framed & one steel frame, and all with carbon forks and disc brakes. I knew I needed to size down a bit, but was shocked to discover that I was uniformly fitting a 56 cm frame across three manufacturers and four different frame geometries. (I ride a 59 cm horizontal tt road bike and a 24 inch roadster.)
    What was really interesting was how after careful pre-ride adjustment of saddle position and some handlebar tweaks to each bike, I could tell which one was going to hurt. I put a mile or so on each one of them, all on urban pot-holed chipseal Minneapolis streets, and I called it right each time. I am just referring to ride quality; the saddles varied from laughable to nearly transparent. Normal saddles for me are a 1966 Brooks Pro or a 1976 Brooks Pro on dropbar bikes. I didn't think I'd be that sensitive, but I suppose I've learned what to look for.

    For those keeping score, the Masi CXGR was the overall nicest ride for me, followed closely by the Marin Lombard Elite.

    What bicycle did your friend end up buying, V?

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    1. Some higher end Ribble model. I don't think they are sold in the US, but very common on the roads here.

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    2. I went to their site- they do indeed ship to the US and Canada. Some very nice looking bikes ( I'm looking at you, steel audax model), and an awful lot of nice component choices available.
      Did he go carbon, Ti, Steel, AL?

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    3. Carbon +Campagnolo, I think, from a few years ago. I have only ridden a carbon Ribble once, and it felt all right - better than (the equally popular here) Giant at any rate, at a lower price. The UK actually has a pretty good selection of comparatively well-priced modern roadbikes; at least half a dozen brands here that I'd never heard of in the US.

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  13. I don't care what kind of bike one rides, no matter how cool or expensive or pretty or whatever, if you're riding it for distance fit is the most important issue. What are your parameters? Flexibility, injuries, milage, use, age, all come into play. No physical activity is enjoyable if pain is a dominate or persistent experience. I think a lot of bicyclist who experience pain are reluctant to give up their image of the thing. 'You mean I can't ride this cool and aggressive machine?' Sometimes adapting to what works for you is a reality check. That said, do it. Find a good fitter or shop who is willing to go the distance to make your experience lasting. It's worth it. I've cycled for forty years and have gone through many changes. Our bodies change and so must our bikes.

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  14. Brooks saddles are way to expensive. I got rid of my butt pain by removing my racing saddle. Getting an older, wider plastic saddle. Ripping off the vinyl cover and padding. Heating the saddle up (not to much) and sitting on it. Then put the padding back on my now perfectly butt-shaped saddle, and finally covering it with leather cut from an old leather vest. Very comfy.

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    1. Nice. Did you trim the edges of the plastic innards to crete a custom width/outline, or use it as-is?

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    2. Price does not mean comfort - the most comfortable bike saddle I ever had was purchased from a department store here for just a few dollars - if I was to see one like it again I would buy it immediately.

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  15. Just wondering if you'll be at Bespoked 2015? Looks like some nice bikes there.

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    1. Unfortunately no. But I might be at the Dublin Cycle Show, held on the same weekend.

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  16. I'm going to that show on Saturday,,,see you there !!!!!!!!!!!!

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  17. When I was working as a bike mechanic in Minneapolis a few years ago, I used to get asked about fit. I'm old-skool enough that I still hew to the 'Fistful of seatpost' rule of bike fit, and a stem that puts the handlebars in a position to obscure the front hub. For an average person, that's in the ballpark, and they tweak it from there. I found as well that fit was a LOT less critical with quill pedals and toe clips than with clipless and cleats, since you can move your feet around a little.

    But insofar as specifics-- when asked about saddles, or bars, or brifters-- that kind of fit is so personal and specific that I really hesitated to recommend anything to anyone. I'd tell them what worked *for me* but also that it almost certainly wouldn't work *for them.*

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    1. "I'm old-skool enough that I still hew to the 'Fistful of seatpost' rule of bike fit, and a stem that puts the handlebars in a position to obscure the front hub.... fit was a LOT less critical with quill pedals and toe clips than with clipless and cleats, since you can move your feet around a little."

      That is indeed old-skool: making the rider adopt a position that suits the bike.
      The nu-skool approach is to adapt the bike to fit the rider. ;)

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  18. Hey Ms. Velouria and Folks!
    Been away as my work pc has you listed as FORBIDDEN!
    Started riding to work again regularly now from a hiatus from December. I thought shoveling would keep me in shape but, not when you eat garbage as I have! So, after applying 25 Wintery pounds, I am back at it.

    Getting reacquainted with the saddle is a misleading understatement!! But that's it. I hope my poor little old Olmo can keep it together until I slim down.

    I have a lot of reading to catch up on. I hope allz well by you!

    vsk / Sunny NYC

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  19. The problem of what causes the pain is intricate. I am 66 years old and started serious riding at the age of 25. I used to be able to make 40 miles in 1:50. Now I would be happy to endure 40 miles. I own five bikes: two Raleigh Sports ('72 and '78), a mid-90s mountain bike that belonged to one of the kids, a Long Haul Trucker I take out on the road and a ca. 1970 Ron Kitching time trial frame set up as a town bike with 40 year old and contemporary parts. I have five Brooks saddles from 1973 to 2014. None of them is particularly comfortable, but the 40 year old one is better than the others. All I can say is, as you age, you have to adapt and accept different challenges to what you may have posited at a younger age. I have at my disposal the exact same saddle I rode over 100 miles with no discomfort 40 years ago which I can now endure for two hours at most. It's called getting old. I cherish every moment and thank you for letting me tell my tale. PJT

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  20. V,

    Great post! I am really enjoying going over some of your old threads! Comfort is a always a relative term. As some folks just have no tolerance for any pain. "Spindizzy" is spot on on this subject! I really enjoy the comments as you have some great readers. Me, I have been riding my bicycle since I was seven. I never really stopped. Also, I am amazed at the breadth of your topics, and your writing style fits my reading style!

    Thanks!
    The Oldcyclist

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