Thursday, January 31, 2013

Neato! Nice Porter You Got There...

Vermont Fall Classic, Start
For those of us who spend more time reading and communicating about bikes on the internet than in person, sometimes we go years before hearing bike terms uttered out loud. And so we form our own pronunciation, discovering only later that it might not match the way others pronounce the same words. Largely this is because so many bicycle words are foreign in origin. Even if we know the original language, it is not clear whether the common pronunciation matches it or has been distorted.

I remember the first bike word I had to adjust from the way I said it mentally was panniers. When I first started seeing this term I assumed stress on the second syllable (rhymes with veneers) and found the anglified stress on the first syllable jarring (I still can't get over that the English will pronounce ballet as "bally"). But I switched early on, and now PAN-iers sounds perfectly normal - though I still pronounce it the other way when referring to the French skirt hoops.

With other words, I cannot switch over. At some point I realised that many people pronounce porteur as "porter." Porter bike. Porter bars. Porter rack. What? It's porteur, rhymes with connoisseur!

Likewise, I have heard randonneur bikes called random-ners.

And I have heard decalleur pronounced as deCAY-ler.

English speakers generally pronounce mixte as mixtee, not "meext" as in the original French. Although I notice that some - not knowing French but wishing to pronounce it in what they believe to be the correct way - say mix-TAY, as if the French word had an accent aigu at the end (mixté). I have always said it the anglicised way, just because "meext" sounds strange to me as a noun.

Then there are the Japanese manufacturers. In my head, Tange sounded like the first part of the word "tangible," and I was pretty sure I'd heard it said that way. Later I started hearing "tahn-gay."

And I've always mentally pronounced Nitto like "neato," later surprised to hear bike shop mechanics pronouncing it to rhyme with ditto. They in turn found my way amusing. "Really, neato? I guess they are kinda neat-oh components!"

Dia Compe seems to be a free for all. I have heard dee-yah-coump, dee-yah-coum-pay and Diacom.

Of course all of this is more entertaining than anything. Languages get mixed and terminology evolves; there is not necessarily a "correct" way to pronounce any of this stuff. Though I am still not sure about dynamo... Stress on the first syllable or the second?

102 comments:

  1. "Tahn-gay" is correct for Tange (the G is always hard in Japanese). But "neato" is more or less correct ("neat-toe" would be even better; both Ts should be pronounced). Nitto as ditto is I suppose acceptable as a lazy Americanized pronunciation, but I'm amused that your mechanics were amused at a more accurate pronunciation.

    The one that always got me is SRAM. Having a lot of computer work in my background, I instinctively pronounced it as "ess ram", the same way S-RAM memory chips are, but I gather that's incorrect and it should be like "scram" without the C.

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    1. You mean there are ways to pronounce it other than Shrahm?

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  2. Hmm... locally they are pan-Yays and mixt with no extra vowel sound at the end at all.

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  3. De-RAY-le-yur. BYOO-sage. stradler cable.

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  4. I can help with the Japanese.

    Tange is pronounced as you'd heard, "tahn-gay".

    You're also right in saying Nitto as "neato". If you want to get fancy, put a pause between the "a" and the "t", say the "nea" short like the Knights Who Say Ni, and say the "to" part long like "tow". "ni! ...tow"

    Some others:

    Shimano: "she mah no"
    Sugino: "sue ghee no"
    Honjo: "hone joe"
    Sekine: "say key nay"
    Nishiki: "knee she key"
    Bridgestone: "bridgestone"

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    1. Bridgestone = pronounced, "Gurant Peetersen".

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  5. Your title got my hopes up, I've always pronounced it to rhyme with "ditto" but from the beginning thought it would be cool if it was pronounced "Neato".

    It's nice to be right but sometimes it would be fun to feel free to be a bit more flexible in the cause of onomatopoeia. Whatever, I'm still reluctant to pronounce "Campagnolo" in anything louder than a murmur in case any Italians are hanging about. Back home in rural Texas it's sometimes safer to intentionally mispronounce things to avoid being labelled "Freedom hatin' evil-dewer" or something...

    Spindangdizzy

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  6. Silly as it seems, this is one my favorite posts lately. Being a native Spanish speaker who took French in high school I have to say I agree with you on how you pronounce words like porteur and randonneur, although I tend to neutralize the last syllable, so it sounds pleasing in any language (porTUR)....for mixte y say mixt.... and Nitto definitely rhymes with ditto! What about VeloOrange? is it VE-lo-OR-ange, Ve-LO-OR-ange or Ve-LO-o-RANJJ ?????

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    1. Very instructive...but I had no idea Nitto was a Japanese brand, I always thought it was French or Italian.

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  7. Oh goody! are you going to do a post about riding in a hoop-skirt?

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  8. I LOVE this! So true. I heard this as an argument for audio books recently, which I thought was interesting. A non-bicycle-related one: I drive my husband nuts with my pronunciation of the bush "arbor vitae." Everyone around me pronounces it "arbor vie-tee", but I just can't - clearly, it's "arbor vee-tae." Like "curriculum vitae." It's the same word! How can it be pronounced differently? *sigh*... too much time around academia in my youth, perhaps. :)

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  9. This rings so familiar with me. I have Miche hubs on one of my bikes, and good luck figuring out how that is pronounced. My bike shop says Mee-chee but I'm pretty sure that's not how most people would say it. It's hard to pin down exactly what is right with lesser known brands.

    I could never own a Ciocc because if someone were to ask me what kind of bikes I have, it would be embarrassing to not be able to tell them accurately. Haha.

    I've never heard dynamo stressed on the second syllable but also don't hear them talked about often in real life.

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    1. Back in the 80s the importer pronounced it "Shoash" over the phone. My brother in law has one and calls it a Seeock.

      Spindizzy

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    2. You're bro in law should not be riding bikes.

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    3. Well, it's only for Triathlons so it doesn't count in quite the same way. He did actually buy it in Italy so he gets points for that.

      Spindizzy

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    4. A few years back I bought a Ciocc frame for one of restoration projects. I promptly sent it to a builder for repairs.

      There were a lot of things going on in my non-cycling life at the time. By the time I remembered the frame, I forgot to whom I sent the blasted thing.

      Called I think five builders trying to track it down. Each had a very different way of pronouncing the name. Never did find where I sent it.

      Hope where it went it was restored. A very nice frame.

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  10. Here's Orwell on the topic, at least in the British context:

    Our patriotism was thick-headed - the bulldog is "an animal noted for its obstinacy, ugliness and stupidity" - and proudly insular: "nearly every Englishman of working-class origin considers it effeminate to pronounce a foreign word correctly".

    This quality is not exclusive to the working classes, of course, nor to the English. Americans are just as bad.

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  11. Funny post. I've noticed the same when actually venturing into physical reality to talk about bikes.. "are we saying the same word?"

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  12. Don't forget derailleur. I've always said it derailer and Sheldon Brown even recommended spelling it that way.

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  13. Sheldon has a great article about pronouncing "derailer:" http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html

    I think one reason people abandon French pronunciations when speaking English is that it requires a pretty significant shift in the kinds of things one's mouth is doing to switch between English and French on the fly.

    All these words, by the way, sound terrific with a good, strong Boston accent.

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    1. It is a shift. If you're an Anglo-Canadian it is one you've made for years, so easier I suppose. Must be the hardest shift for unilingual Anglos. Being unilingual is a problem.

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  14. DOOH' rah AH' chay! Love the 7400 series, which I plan to use on my Ramboollet.

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  15. Sheldon claims pannier is an English word, not adopted from French, to be pronounced accordingly (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_p.html#pannier). But your reference to hoop skirts makes me think he got that wrong.

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    1. I didn't read the reference recently -- he says it is adapted from the French, from a reference to the use of these bags for carrying bread ("pain"). But I like the hoop skirt derivation a lot better. The bags are something like hoop skirts and, anyway, the spelling is different.

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  16. Thanks for helping out with the French lingo. That's one mysterious language on this side of the pond.

    I've always wondered about the proper pronunciation of "Mafac." Any help there?
    A friend pronunces Mavic as "MAvick," sort of like "Maverick."

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    1. Mafac = ma-fac. Weird I know.

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    2. Mafac = say "my f*ck" and you'll be stopped as well

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  17. I've always pronounce Nitto as "Neato" in my head... Something about the double "t" in it, I suppose. Funny that I've never considered pronouncing "ditto" that way, though...

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  18. Dynamo - some stress on the first syllable, more on the third.

    As an English speaker I percieve a tendency in French to add about a syllable in print that is not pronounced. It makes one curious if they all know what they're saying to one another, or if it's all barbed wordplay like in movies about Louis XIV's court.

    German has very consistent pronunciation rules but it's much the worse for it. It doesn't sound pretty. And it's difficult to learn sixteen words for "the" and when to use them.

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  19. In Seattle, I knew several Asian American cyclists who preferred Dur ahChay for Dura Ace. So much so that became what I say in my head, but speaking I generally manage the conventional pronunciation.

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  20. I like
    DIE-na-mo
    de-RAIL-er
    Nitto rhymes with ditto
    randonneur rhymes with connoisseur

    Oh, it is hard to find rhyme AND reason.

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  21. I think Nitto would be pronounced by the Japanese the same way you originally pronounced it too - but with more of a pause and emphasis on the T. Like knee-TTOH. I say this with an 80% level of certainty.

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  22. I find much about the French to be disgusting and refuse to be any way submissive to or heed any of their language's pronunciation conventions.

    Al

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    1. Ah, Mon Ami, you are missing the very nub of the Frenchness! Are we caring how you are damaging our language from your biting and chewing of it as it dribbles out of your mouth like particles of hamburger meat? Of course we are not, do not be absurd.

      It is natural that it should impede you so, is it not an encumbrance to all? Assuredly so, including the French. Do not allow it to trouble your mind in any way. Please, return to your macaroni and cheese and light beer, we understand...

      Jean Claude De'La Blehblehbleh

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    2. Clawed, perhaps you should ask for help from others in trying to understanding my comments?

      Al

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    3. MON DIEU! Are you not properly chagrined already that you invite a determined taunting?! You are fortunate that in my serenity I extend the hand of, how you say, magnanimity and not the gauntlet of honor! Do not attempt to camouflage your deceit with REASON and COMMON SENSE!!! Bon Jour!

      Jean

      Jean

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    4. Clawed, you do an excellent portrayal of a Frenchman in that you make no sense at all but rather just sound ridiculous!

      Al

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    5. Yes, I have perfected that, the French accent she is such a MAGNIFICENT thing of which to be possessed. You are finding yourself in awe of it, perhaps? No?

      Too late I realize your beginning comment was that insidious weapon, wielded in ambush, IRONY! Too late I perceive the dull blade of the cursed English humor slip between the ribs of my courageous FRENCH-LIKE person. Is it not because I am the LION that I strike out in RAGE and FURY?! However, is it not also because I am the wise OWL that I forgive you your unfortunate jape and we shall part fiends, no? Of course it is.

      Jean Claud

      P.S. You have no idea how close I am convinced I was to un-leashing a FIRE of WITHERING SCORN and PAINFUL DERISION on yourself that you would be stinging from until it stopped in time! It was a very near thing for you my friend.

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  23. I'm kind of hopeless pronouncing french, but Japanese is "easy". Pronounce all of the vowels and try not to stress any syllable above others. Vowel sounds are like in Spanish or Italian

    a == ah
    e == 'e' in bed
    i == 'ee' in feet
    o == oh
    u == 'oo' in food

    if you see a doubled consonant, that means a 'glottal stop' between the two consonants, so Nitto is more like "Neat Toe" but "Neat-oh" is pretty close.

    Japanese firms can make it a little harder by using non-japanese words in their names too. Minolta is not really pronouncable in native Japanese, but that was the brand name. TV commercials were for "Minoruta" cameras.

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  24. Having partially grown up in Canada, I still find it disconcerting when people don't have basic understanding of French pronunciation. When someone pronounces "brevet" to rhyme with "pivot"? Like nails on a chalkboard. Rusty nails.

    As you say, most don't know any better and it's not their fault specifically (and especially when their first introduction to the word is in its written form) so I don't judge folks on it, but I do insist on a correct pronunciation.

    Though, when one spells "voila" as "walla"? Ok, then I'll judge the shit out of you.

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  25. As you may know, "panniers" is pronounced "sack-osh". Unless you're talking about a basket.

    I don't speak about bikes out loud much either, but I'm yet to hear someone refer to a bike as "un mixte". You'd have to be specifically referring to the frame and say "un cadre mixte".

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  26. My all time favorite is eS-Ram.

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  27. Not bike components but the computer manufacturer Asus, I assumed for the same literal reason was "AY-suss" but is, in fact "ah-SOOS". The fact that it was originally Pegasus but shortened doesn't help. Another is the tool maker Ryobi. And then there are city and street names. "mar-TEE-nez" California, but "MAR-ti-nez" Georgia. ""trih-POE-luh" Iowa but "trippo-LEE" Libya and Lebanon. I voice commercials nationwide, so I've always been keen on how names are pronounced. Even before the internet, I'd call the police non-emergency number or a hotel in the city in question to get the pronounciation. Once in a while you get cities where multiple people will say it's this way or that way, but no one minds either. Oh, by the way...it's "BOY-see" Idaho...not "BOY-zee".

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  28. I always said KNIT-oh for Nitto until I worked at Euro Asia Imports which distributes a lot of Nitto parts. The manager, who has visited the Nitto factory in Japan a few times, corrected me with your initial pronunciation: NEAT-oh.

    Also, Miche is apparently pronounced MEE-kay (it's Italian). And why do so many people say ESS-RAM instead of SRAM?

    In spite of switching over for some, I'm still content to pronounce Mavic as MÆ-vik.

    -Mætt

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  29. I guess some are easily mispronounced if you've never had a French lesson. One I got wrong was Thule the manufacturers of bike racks amongst other items. I thought it was Thool but have since heard it called Toolay. Who'da thunk it?

    Being from near where Carradice are based I wonder how you pronounce that? Us Lancastrians say Car-a-do hay, being the sophisticated bunch that we are. :o)

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    1. As an American who's never heard someone else say it, I settled on Care-a-deece. Your pronunciation is more interesting, though!

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    2. Woops. I've been pronouncing it the Italian way. Carra-DEE-chey

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    3. I started out pronouncing it "Italian-style" too, then tried "car-uh-dice" now I just say "my saddlebag."

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    4. Sorry, I was just playing silly beggars! We, well I, don't pronounce it as I said/wrote before but it's really interesting to see that you've all tried something different. I usually go for Ca-ra-dice (hard 'a' in Northern England). I might pedal over and ask them at the factory what they say... or maybe we settle on one of the above and start using it and see how long it is before we hear someone else use it?!

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  30. Dynamo - say "Din-ah-moo".

    (grin)

    Don't get me started on "bottom bracket".

    I still spell "derailleur", but mix my pronunciation between the proper French and Californio-English. Sad, really.

    When in doubt, imagine how Benny Hill or Terry Jones might have said it.

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  31. Here's how I have said all these things in my own brain:

    PAN-yers

    por-TUR

    ran-dun-YUR

    de-ca-LUR

    MIX-tee

    TANJ

    NIT-o

    DEE-ya COMP

    DIE-nuh-mo

    Mostly I think it's funny to hear words pronounced differently. With the exception of EXpresso. That bugs me, probably because there's clearly no X in that word :)

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  32. Pronuciation is as prounciation does. Today's Facebook post from George Takei has the word "khaki" as heard in Boston (car key) versus the rest of the country (pants). My deaf aunt used to pronounce Oprah as "opera" and "Leno" as "leeno" (one does say Reno, after all). I have a friend who insists on pronoucing Skype as "sky-pee." It does on. I suppose so long as one is understood, though I have never hear of a "decalleur" (derailleur?).

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  33. "Dynamo" has been an English word since the late 19th century (the OED's first citation is 1875, in the compound "dynamo-electric machine"). Stress is on the first syllable: DIE-nah-mow.

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  34. Oh my... Many, MANY years ago, when I was still in high school, my best friends and I all decided that we wanted to go to Brown University. Not sure why, but somehow we decided that it was "the place to go."

    So we all applied, but only one of us got in - she was the bookworm of the crowd, the kind who experienced words as things that appear on a page rather than things that were spoken to her.

    Anyhow, on our first vacation together after starting college we were all quizzing her about Brown. Was it really all that it was cracked up to be?

    She tried to make us all feel better... and she really had NO idea how MUCH better she was about to make me feel when she said: Well, it's OK, but there are an awful lot of "suedo" (rhyming with "play dough") intellectuals!

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    1. Funny mistake, but I'm making sado-intellectual part of my vocabulary from now on.

      "She took satisfaction from the great number of lesser minds that had fallen victim to her sado-intellectualism."

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    2. Beats (sic) pseudo-masochism.

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  35. For Japanese companies with European names, who knows? I would want to hear an employee say "Dia-Compe" before I hazard a guess. Dynamo is definitely stressed on the first syllable though (or as an old singing teacher of mine would say, it's emPHAsised on the first syLLAble).

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  36. It always grates my ear when I hear that somebody bought or has a "Porsh".

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  37. I think mispronunciation of foreign words is part of the charm of every non-native tongue, especially when they speak the same language!

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  38. I once had a conversation with a fellow who kept referring to "incumbent" bikes. I kept saying "recumbent" more and more insistently, and he kept on saying incumbent without any hint of playfulness. And then just last week I got email asking about whether such and such would work with a redundant. Several times (redundantly?) I assume that was autocorrect.

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    1. What about a recombinant bike?

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    2. Guy was only referring to existing bike as a lame duck.

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    3. Are ANT bikes recombinant since they have genetic material from IF and Fat Chance? Or is there so much of Fat Chance in early IFs that it doesn't qualify?

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    4. Well... I was remarking to my boyfriend a while back that the only way I got through school was by using pneumatic devices. He looked at me and said "Honey, I think you mean mnemonic devices."

      Ah yes... the pneumatic device... because we all know how the iron lung improves memory! Heaven help me!

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  39. I've been working in bike shops for more than a decade and am still not sure about some of these.

    Being from NJ, though, I just assume everything is pronounced as if it were Italian ;-)

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  40. I have a good friend who always says skip-seal rather than chip-seal. I have given up on reforming him. Perhaps I should tell him he won't skip on the chip-seal around these parts. The ragged gravel chunks are pretty large, perhaps rip-and-tear-seal.

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  41. Aren't I lucky to know both some French and Japanese! I got my French in school in Toronto, and I live in Japan now.

    The pronunciations of Japanese brands, Nitto and Tange, you have been given are correct. Dia-Compe? There is no 'm'. It is written in the phonetic script thus: ダイアコンペ. Dee'a Konpe, as close as I can get it.

    Americans mangle French, but you do not hear it in the background all the time as we do. In English Canada (and French Canada, bien sur) all of those terms get French pronunciation. Were I to move to the US I would keep them out of obstinacy: just as I keep my extra u (colour...), correct spelling of 'centre', and pronounce the final letter of the alphabet with a consonant at then end.

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  42. Henry Higgens on the English Language "In America they haven't spoken it in years" As a native French speaker I read Tin Tin to my young boys. I pronounced it the French way like can can not like a tin can. I am always accused of being snobby when I use the french pronunciation for french words but that's how I roll and besides I can always whip out my saber and act like Captain Haddock.
    Emile

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    1. Yes Sabres! More rattling, less prattling!

      Spinyourowndamndizzy!

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  43. All this talk bout dee-ray-lers probably has our UK friends scratching their whigs. It''s a "mech" to them, pronounced "meck". Mechs with the most fetish points are "Cam-pag", which Yanks of a certain age woud invariably call "Campy".

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  44. I've heard "randonneur" pronounced as "rando-newer." (not how I pronounce it)

    "Pannier" is a problematic word. I've been told not to pronounce it like the Indian cheese "paneer." Around here, it's pronounced either "paneer," "pan-yer," or "pan-yay." I try to avoid saying it.

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  45. Dave--I read somewhere that the founder of the company that bears his family name always pronounced "Carradice" to rhyme with "Paradise."

    I find it funny when people who dislike Shimano or Campagnolo accent the last syllables of those names.

    I've heard "derailleur" pronounced as "DEE-rawl-er."

    Somewhat on the subject, I remember the first time I encountered the word "potence" in a French bike magazine. It was in the days before Lance and Festina, but I thought it referred to one of the substances they and other members of the peloton were accused of taking.

    Finally, this has nothing to do with cycling, but with pronunciation: There is a Persian poetic form called the "ghazal." For years, I had encountered the word only in books. When I finally heard it--mainly from other writers and teachers, it was pronounced "guh-ZAHL." However, I once attended a reading by Iranian-American poet Esther Kamkar. The way she pronounced the word, it sounded like "guzzle."

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    1. Well, I remember being utterly confused in high school English class when we were supposed to read "Waiting for Godot" because I kept expecting some character called "Gadoe" to appear, and in my copy there was only some dude named "Go-Dot!"

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    2. Hi Justine

      Yes, that's how I say it as well and most of the people I know around here do. I was just being daft before but it was interesting to learn others pronounce it in different ways as well, unless they're being silly beggars as well. It would be intersting to find out where the Carradice family name originates from though.

      Dave

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    3. Dave, we are trying to convince our Swiss colleagues that Morecambe is pronounced Mo-rey-cam-bay. Limited success so far. Carradice is interesting in this respect as it is most likely an anglicized corruption of Carruthers which in itself is probably derived from Ker or Caer and Rhydd or similar. Probably Scottish rather than Welsh

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    4. Cheers Tim, interesting. After Morecambe take them to Am-bli-sid-ay in the Lakes. My Dad used to say that was how American tourists used to pronounce Ambleside.

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  46. So which is it? Va-lar-ee-ah or Veh-lore-ee-ah? Wonderful post!

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    1. Ah yes, Boston, the Pixies, Velouria. I kinda figured.

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  47. It's only getting better. Anyone up for Mjölnir?
    Hetre (beech) had me stumped for a while, until I saw the pronunciation guide on the Compass Cycles blog. Regardless, I still mostly use my old way--everyone I know rides Michelins or Contis, so I only say the word in my head. As for the French stuff,Allez Bobet!

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    1. That reminds me: I neglected to mention Herse!

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    2. Oh come on people want to mispronounce herse b/c it connotes an old black vehicle your corpse rides in long after your spirit leaves your body?

      And cyclists wonder why motorists tend to dismiss them.

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  48. 'Erse, 'Etre and 'Uret (ooRAY!) :D

    Tange is definitely "tun-geh" rather than "tun-gay". Japanese has equal stress on all syllables in a word, which to most English-speakers' ears sounds like the stress is on the last, like French.

    So "SHEE-MA-NO", "SUE-GI-NO" ("g" as in "get" not "j" as in "George"), TAN-GE. But us Aussies mangle pronunciation worse than most, and Aussie cyclists worst of all. So it's always "Sh'MARnoe" and "S'JEEnoe" and of course "TAAANJ"

    But at least we still call agarde a boue a mudguard and not a fender. Well Aussie cyclists who rode bikes before the internet was invented do anyway... b

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  49. Reading these posts on pronunciation have been a hoot.
    I've been in the bike biz for 27 years (Island Bicycles in Friday Harbor, WA) and have been ceaseless in my patience teaching customers to say "campanyolo" rather than "campag-nolo," and "sram" rather than "es-ram." Studying French (sort of) in high school gave me, if nothing else, a sensitivity to how words are pronounced, and bad pronunciation hurts my ears almost as much as hearing someone sing a song flat on every note.

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  50. In British English, dynamo has the emphasis on the first syllable, as in dynamite. Ballet is pronounce the French way in England, with the emphasis on the first syllable. The American-French emphasis on the second syllable is perhaps a hyper-correction that developed from people wishing to show that they knew the T was silent, and thus inadvertently emphasising the ending. The same thing even happens with words like fillet and claret, which are often mistaken for French in the US, and are thus converted to American French, fill_EH? clar-EH?, instead of CLARet, FILLet. But this is how language evolves. In many ways American English is much closer to the English of the 17th century than modern British English is.

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    1. I've read that Appalachian English pronunciation is relatively close to 17th Century English.

      Mainstream U.S. English pronnunciation has been so influenced by Irish, non-English speaking European, Asian and Latino emigration along with organic development it has evolved well away from what the WASPs spoke.

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    2. Stressing the 1st syllable in ballet (and claret, etc) is what sounds jarring (and incidentally, not everyone I knew in England pronounced it that way, just some). As far as the ending, neither the English nor the American versions (bally vs ballay) sound like the French "et" to me. But the American version comes closer IMO.

      Funny that you mention fillet. I pronounce it fil-LAY when referring to food, but FILL-it when referring to brazing.

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    3. Oh my gosh, I'll never forget the first time I, a self taught welder, called a fill-it weld a fil-lay in front of real live oilfield welders. Holy Cow, the Crap I had to put up with for that...

      Spindizzy

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    4. Dang, I wish I had caught that one! Touche.

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  51. Forgot Herse?! Heresy! I'm glad for you to clear that up as all the pronunciations I've heard seem to be hearsay...

    Der Schpinn

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  52. Let's call the whole thing oeuf.

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  53. Roadmaster = rode mast ur
    Schwinn = sh win

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  54. there is a correct way to pronounce all these words, and that is in their respective original language, if anyone cared to investigate properly.

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  55. Surely not! You don't pronounce Paris the way the French do, do you?

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  56. The great thing about Italian is that pronunciation is consistent. English must be a nightmare for those learning it. Having had a Carradice saddle bag fifty years ago at school, it tickles me that it might be pronounced as if it were Italian. I came to this topic under a misapprehension anyway. Porter is an alternative and rather outdated name for Guinness stout, so-called because it was the favourite drink of porters in produce markets.

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