Tuesday, June 21, 2011

Back and Forth: Lessons in Positioning

Last week I rode my Rivendell Sam Hillborne for the first time in three weeks after riding exclusively the loaner Seven on a close to daily basis. It's hard to believe that the body can adapt to one position so quickly as to find other positions unnatural. I confidently got on my bike, expecting that old familiar feeling of riding it to welcome me back. But I was in for a surprise. The ride was as comfortable as I remembered, but everything felt off. It took me a while to understand what was wrong. Initially it was just a vague sense of not feeling as connected to the road and as much in control of the bike, which was disconcerting. As I kept cycling, I became aware that it was really two specific things: I felt that I was seated too far back, and that I wasn't out far enough over the front wheel. I kept wanting to shove my weight forward, and it was frustrating to feel almost as if I were sitting "behind" the bike. 

Looking at the way the two bicycles are set up, the difference makes sense. On the Seven, the saddle sits further forward and the handlebars are further out. I was aware of this difference before, but assumed that I would find the Seven's set-up aggressive and uncomfortable, while the Rivendell's set-up a welcome relief. Instead the Seven's set-up now feels "right" and anything deviating from it feels "wrong" - as if I don't have sufficient control of the bike. That feeling is hard to shake. I think my Rivendell needs a little make-over. 

While moving the saddle forward is easy enough, changing the handlebar set-up will be messy, because I will have to replace the fairly short (6cm) stem with a longer one. When I fist began trying to ride with drop bars, I found it extremely difficult and a short stem was recommended to make the transition easier. I cannot say that it was a poor recommendation, because it worked. I rode with this set-up for a year, gradually becoming more comfortable with the whole idea of a roadbike, and feeling increasingly natural in a forward-leaning position. Some would look at my bikes and point out that my stems are too short, and I was perfectly aware that by most standards they are. But these things are highly personal, and last year I was concerned not so much with speed and agility, as with just being able to ride the bike. The way a bike balanced with a shorter stem felt better to me at the time. For what it's worth, I see many roadbikes from the 1970s-80s that were ridden by women set up with short stems. My previously owned vintage Trek had an even shorter stem than this bike, and that was the original owner's doing.

Going back and forth between the Seven and the Rivendell has been educational; each has what the other lacks. It is fairly clear to me that I "need" a lightweight, purely-roadish roadbike like the Seven and that I also "need" a wide-tired, befendered, dynamo-hub, luggage-bearing long distance bike like the Rivendell. I would not want to turn one into the other, or to combine them into something in-between. If I could make changes to the Seven, it would be to magically decrease its size. If I could make changes to the Rivendell, it would be to alter its positioning and to make it lighter. The former we will be doing shortly. The latter is not really possible without getting rid of the very things that make this bike practical. But I am very curious now whether it is the positioning, more than anything else that accounts for the difference in speed between the two bicycles. I am also wondering what the "ideal" stem length for this bike would be. The top tube is unusually long, so it would have to be 8-9cm tops. It's frustrating that experimenting with stems is not easy, but I will report the results of my trial-and-error fumblings. 

47 comments:

  1. how is this different from riding your other bikes before the seven? because the body should 'remember' different positional settings and should be able to adapt and be comfortable among the variations: my current bikes (a mountain, a fixed gear, and a racer) have their individual geometries but it takes only a second to re-adapt to each when i switch bikes between riding days.

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  2. Just a thought, but if you're planning to experiment a lot with the stem length, you may want to consider getting something like the VO threadless stem adapter, which is only $16. Then you can swap around a few different threadless stems, which can be had very cheap. When you find the ideal length shell out for the shiny Nitto.

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  3. Even though my "road"bike and my commuter are set up nearly identically, the difference is radical when going from one to the other. For so many years I rode my "road"bike, thinking that I would never not be used to it; but after a mere few days on another bike, to jump back to it takes some time to adjust.

    Now, when I get on my MTB it's like a whole different world!

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  4. "8-9mm tops" should be cms.

    "But I am very curious now whether it is the positioning, more than anything else that accounts for the difference in speed between the two bicycles." - Define speed. Top speed short burst, accel speed, sustainable top speed, sustainable comfortable top speed. With load, w/o.

    If you want to avoid stem changing hassle don't tape or re-use tape until position established. Otherwise you're going to have to deal if you want it to look perfect all the time.

    If you're still running the stem w/a long quill swap out to a shorter quill, longer reach stem. Don't go by published TT length, go by tape measure + Seven stem length, transfer over.

    Rotating forward could mean a new saddle as well.

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  5. I go back and forth between lots of bikes as well and don't get the desire to readjust them every time. But here it feels like not just a matter of the two being different. I can sense that my position on the Rivendell robs me of the efficiency I'd prefer to have on that bike. I no longer need for the saddle to be quite that far back to feel comfortable and stable on a bike, and ditto with the short stem. So I distinctly feel that the set-up is sub-optimal and not just different, if that makes sense.

    WickedCold - I've been told those adapters are dangerous (not VO specifically, but in general). How long have you ridden with one, and have you had any problems? Either way, I have a bunch of used Nittos in different lengths, so that's not an issue. But redoing the bars every time is a pain, especially since I need to ride for a bit in order to know how I really feel about the set-up.

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  6. cm not mm, right

    "Rotating forward could mean a new saddle as well."

    Why?.. Or did you mean seatpost?
    The seatpost I am using on that bike has crazy setback, and the seat tube is already slack, so I think I just need a simple seatpost with less setback.

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  7. I don't own one, but I wouldn't hesitate to use one. There's nothing inherently dangerous or unusual about the design. It's pretty straight forward. The wedge into the fork is the same as any other quill stem, and the threadless stem isn't going to come loose if you torque it properly. Looking at the picture, I can't imagine where a failure would occur:

    http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/stems/vo-threadless-stem-adaptor.html

    VO has sold a ton of them, and I've never heard anything about failures of any kind. Maybe you're thinking of threadless steerer extenders?

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  8. This saddle has excellent rails. We can go forward around 1-1.5 cm, I would think. Even more with a non-setback post.

    Let's not forget that slamming the saddle way back was an intentional move to take pressure off hands during first exposure to drop bars.

    I think going to an 8-9cm stem and moving saddle forward that 1-1.5cm will improve things considerably, although I suspect that you sit higher on the Seven and that it has a lower BB than the SH, so your leg extension will be a little less, and the bike will still feel 2x heavier because it is, frankly speaking.

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  9. MDI - So you agree that it's 2x heavier, it's not just me exaggerating?

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  10. The Anatomica is soft ostrich (?) w/a cutout vs. a B17 (?) or Pro (?) w/o and cow hide. Rotating position forward puts more ladybits in contact, potential issues. Also Anatomica has a long nose suspended all the way; you may be creeping forward, needing a longer stem. The Brooks will keep you planted.

    Gonna not go out on a limb: Seven is similar at moderate levels than rotated Riv. Once the pace picks up and goes long or goes up, it's over.

    Also exact duplication of Seven position may not be desirable, as Riv's purpose is dif.

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  11. While the bike may be 2x heavier, the bike + rider system should be less than 10% heavier (if I can make a guess as to your weight). Not nearly as a big a difference. It should make you about 5% slower on really steep hills; i.e. you'll be able to go 9 mph uphill on the Rivendell instead of 10 mph on the Seven.

    On downhills the Rivendell will be just as fast, if you get your riding position the same, and on flats it should make perhaps a 1% difference (about the same as the dynamo hub, when turned off).

    Certainly, it's something that matters in a paceline on hills, or in a race, but usually not in other situations.

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  12. Riv w/ bags, stuff and water is probably 34lbs, Seven with water is probably 17lbs.

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  13. I'm guessing the Seven clocks in at about 17 lb as shown, and the SH at about 30 lb.

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  14. GR Jim - My An-Atomica is normal, not ostrich. Ostrich is special edition. Unlike Brooks, the SA saddles are adjustable and they encourage messing with the tension. Mine is adjusted now so that is fairly firm.

    Re the speed difference: The Seven accelerates noticeably better, both from a stop and to a fast speed from a moderate speed (say 12mph to 20mph). Its "effortless cruise mode" is also a bit faster. Once the pace picks up, the two bikes are similar on flats. It's uphill that the Riv drops like a rock in comparison.

    I don't want to duplicate the Seven's position, but just move everything forward a bit - saddle and bars. None of the changes I want to make are even at odds with the Riv philosophy, my stem really is unusually short.

    somervillain - nice guess!

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  15. Riv philosophy. Not to pick on your semantics but theirs; I see they've seen a new/old market and have softened their own doctrinaire leanings. Entitled to change if the market bears it. Riv I love/loathe you.

    If you ever put on a rear rack, do loaded touring for 12+ hr. stretches your position will change again. Drawer full of Nittos. If the Anatomica is yours and you like, Seven -> Riv or drawer maybe.

    Speed cont. - deltas are very much individual rider power output contingent, IMO.

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  16. Joseph E - That's what I thought about the uphill difference as well, which is why I confidently took the Riv on the beginners paceline ride. In practice the difference was more dramatic. I am going to mess with the positioning (and also possibly install brifters) and see what that does.

    GR Jim - I was using "Riv philosophy" semi-humorously, but yes. As an interesting aside, the owner of Seven likes Rivendell and mostly agrees with what GP has to say. Except re carbon forks.

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  17. Velouria, a 1 mph difference in uphill speed is a huge problem in a paceline. If you are 1 mph slower than the bike in front of you for even a 1 minute climb, you will be 88 feet behind at the end. That's a huge gap. In a paceline, even a 0.1 mph difference in speed opens up a big 10 foot gap in a minute.

    That's why the Seven made such a big difference. I agree that the brifters and the handlebar/saddle position were probably just as important as the weight, again making it hard to keep up, especially on descents and flats (for the shifters and handlebar position), while the weight was probably the main issue on uphills.

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  18. That's interesting. And it probably explains why I can't seem to find any other bike I like as much as my 17 year old Schwinn hybrid X-cross beater bike. Every other bicycle I've tried just feels wrong.

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  19. Another thing to keep in mind is that serious road racers often ride on the smallest size frame possible. They will then put on a 130mm stem just to get their hands in the right position. So don't think extending your stem is that unusual.

    Also, many people feel the short stem you currently have is too twitchy - a slight movement of the hands and the wheel turns a lot. Longer stems, conversely, require more arm movement to turn the bike. If you were on a BMX bike, I would say go with the short stem. On your Rivendell, moving your seat forward and lengthening the stem will likely create a perfect setep...

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  20. I have a threadless adapter on my Specialized Allez and have never had any problems with it. It came that way from the seller, and I've had it over two years now.

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  21. You didn't say how long you rode the Sam. I'd guess that between 50 and 100 miles on the Sam and it will feel natural and then the Seven will feel weird when you switch back. It's a good reason to leave the Riv as is. On the other hand, the bike weight is one factor but your power output also affects your speed on each bike. It's possible that your position on the Seven enables you to generate more power. That's a good reason to modify your position on the Riv. :)

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  22. Vandermark isn't afraid to call a good bike a good bike (Public, Riv) unless it's a competitor (Serotta).

    Seven's well-run and fiscally prudent, but they could do a dirt-road bike and it would sell a bit. They're custom, after all. RV and GP sell dif bikes so RV won't agree about no carbon forks but at the same time his touring bikes have steel forks.

    Horses for courses.

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  23. MelissaTheRagamuffinJune 21, 2011 at 7:05 PM

    I had a similar experience when I took my mountain bike out last week after riding Miss Surly exclusively for several weeks. My mountain bike, which used to be my one and only, suddenly just didn't feel right.

    So, how do you make friends with drop handle bars? I just can't stand them which is why I have mustache bars on the Surly.

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  24. Being one who is always preoccupied about my road bike fit; I read the following back in March in Bicycle magazine about road bike stem length.

     "Comfort and control are the key elements in stem length.  Set your saddle height, then use a stem to tune reach to the handlebar.  When you have your hands in the drops, the stem should obscure the hub when you look down at the front wheel.  If the hub falls behind the stem you are more extended or lower than is normal; if the hub appears in front of the stem, you're probably slightly more compact or higher than is typical.  Stem length also plays a role in handling.  A short stem makes the bike feel lively, while a long one can make handling feel sluggish."

    You describe the Rivendell, which has the shorter stem as feeling different, but I'm curious if you noted any difference in the handling as described in the above quote: Long stem (sluggish) vs short stem (lively)? It almost sounds as if you felt more lively :) with the longer stem.

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  25. I find that saddle position and stem length changes my "natural" cruise speed, but I'm not sure it affects my efficiency as much.

    With a very far forward saddle and long stem, I tend to pedal very hard and burn myself out quickly if I don't consciously hold back my effort. Contrariwise, I tend to doddle along lazily if my position is rearward.

    I think this is because I'm inclined to take excess weight off of my hands by pedaling harder.

    By this logic, one's "ideal" position would move forward with increasing physical fitness, which could well apply to you!

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  26. As a Hillborne rider, I certainly agree that the TT feels long. My Brooks B17 is as far forward as it will go. I also concur that it isn't the most nimble bike. I changed the 700X38 tires to 700x32 and the bike rolled better and felt more nimble. The increased nimble-ness did seem to come at the expense of stability.

    There are doubtless many geometry differences beyond TT and stem length that would account for the differences in feel. Wheelbase and chainstay lenght come to mind.

    As for climbing and weight, I would suggest that the riding position on the 7 has as much or more to do with its superior climbing ability as the weight. I find light weight - especially in tires and wheels - contributes a lot to better acceleration.

    All said, I can appreciate the sportiness of a nice road bike - especially one that weighs only 17lbs. But I like the Buick-like comfort of my trusty 'Country Bike'.

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  27. It looks like the handlebars are set much higher on the Riv than the Seven. You can also experiment with lowering them (along with a longer stem) which will have the effect of lengthening the cockpit and putting you into a position closer to what you have on the Seven.

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  28. Velouria, My path into cycling has been somewhat opposite of what yours has been. I started 5 years ago and got into the racing culture as a result of some of the group rides I had done early on. Now I have been reading a lot of the information Riv espouses and have begun to view cycling much differently. I no longer concern myself with looking "pro" and had decided to sell my Modern Carbon Fiber Road bike. I have replaced it with a custom steel Gunnar w/carbon fork (one bit of Riv Kool-Aid I didn't drink) I was interested to see that you started riding the Seven and have been intrigued to hear about your experiences.

    Two things about the Seven that I was wondering about are the Power Grips and the Selle Anatomica saddle. Will you eventually provide a review of these to items?

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  29. Aren't bicycles a fantastic journey?

    Although I'm far from being an expert, I'll offer one bit of advice that has come to me through a few years of my own trial and error:

    Don't try to make a bicycle into something it's not.

    There's a reason for the relaxed geometry of your Sam ... and one for the more aggressive fit of the Seven. Yes, you know that ... but let them be what they are. Each one will never feel like the other, and if you try to FORCE them to feel more alike, their inherent strengths tend to get compromised.

    Right now, it seems you're in the speed and training mode ... so it's only natural that your relaxed, comfy touring bike feels sluggish and heavy. It IS slower ... it IS heavier ... it IS more relaxed. There will be a time when you appreciate that ... when your desires turn back more to touring and sight-seeing. If you tweak the Sam to be more "racy", you just might lose the very things you love most about it ... and then you'll be wondering why it just doesn't feel right anymore. That would be sad. It's like wishing your office chair felt more like your sofa ... or that your mini-van handled more like your Porsche.

    Race the Seven and push your limits. Ride the Sam with no thoughts of speed. Each bike I have has its own equilibrium speed, where everything flows with seemingly little effort. My touring bike is slower than my road bike ... but it doesn't matter, because I choose the one that fits my goal for the day. I don't go out sight-seeing and photo shooting on the road bike ... and I don't go out for training on the touring bike. I don't expect them to ride or feel the same. Oddly enough, they do actually complement each other in terms of what they demand from me as I ride them, resulting a a more well-rounded set of skills and confidence.

    The biggest mistake I've made (many times) is getting myself into a mode of "if only THIS thing on my bike were more perfect, the ride would be SO much better", becoming fixated on what I "preceive" as a problem, and feeling that my bike is somehow less than good enough. One can certainly spend a lifetime perfecting the equipment ... but a ton of time is then missed in the best part of riding ... just getting out and enjoying the ride! Bikes are tools, yes ... by all means pick the right one for the job at hand ... but don't forget about just having fun.

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  30. MelissaTheRagamuffin said...
    ...So, how do you make friends with drop handle bars? I just can't stand them"


    I raised them very high when I first started riding the bike, then lowered them gradually. Within a month or so of weekly lowerings they were at more or less "normal" position. Here's a post about that - hope it helps!

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  31. "Two things about the Seven that I was wondering about are the Power Grips and the Selle Anatomica saddle. Will you eventually provide a review of these to items?"

    Just to clarify, neither of these came with the bike; they are mine.

    Here is my review of PowerGrips from last year, written a month after I began using them. I must have them on all of my roadbikes and I absolutely love them. Your foot "magically" comes out when you need it to, even in an emergency, but stays firmly in place otherwise. The foot retention aspect of it is much stronger than that of loose toe clips, while being infinitely safer than that of properly tightened toe clips.

    Having said that, if I could use clipless I would. I'm just too scared of falling.

    I will review the Selle An-Atomica soon. Overall, it is comfortable and suitable for aggressive cycling, but it is a weird saddle and not for everyone.

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  32. Is it time for an adjustable stem?

    If you ever see one at a swap meet do not let it get away.

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  33. Someone has actually just offered to lend me that adjustable stem. I am tempted to borrow it just to have a look and take some photos!

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  34. I am glad to see that you are enjoying your borrowed road bike. I am still interested to see how you would compare it to a properly fit aluminum bike now that you are more comfortable in an aggressive position.

    The fit of each of your bikes is always going to be slightly different, especially if they are being used for different purposes. Moving between different upright and transportation bikes doesn't doesn't cause much discomfort because your body is not in a very efficient position on any of them and you aren't pushing yourself very hard. As you move into more efficient bikes and begin stressing your body to a greater extent, you will start to notice smaller and smaller differences between setups. Many people will note that after getting used to a particular saddle height, they can tell if it is altered by only a few mm. And it feels uncomfortable if it is off just a bit. At this point I would recommend a fitting. It doesn't need to be a 2hr session on a trainer with computer assisted video analysis. Something like the Fit Kit and an experienced fitter is all you need. Built into a system like this is the ability to tailor the fit to different types of bikes and positions. In one session, you should be able to get starting measurements for an aggressive road position and a relaxed/touring position. I expect that the shop that loaned you the Seven did some sort of measurement of your body dimensions when they fit you for that bike. They may still have the measurements, which would make the process smoother.

    Finding that you are not comfortable on a bike all of the sudden doesn't necessarily mean that you need to change the position. You may just not be in the mood to ride it. I'll go for months on one bike because it just feels great. Then I won't touch it for a few weeks just because I'm just not feeling it anymore. I go through bike moods just like anything else.

    I suppose I should really be saying that you should alter the rivendell however you see fit. You have only been riding bikes seriously for a short time and are still developing a feel for what really works for your body. Experimentation at this point is key (even after you have been professionally fit). Just don't go overboard.

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  35. Thank you for this timely blog. I'm in the process of fine tuning my fit on the newly-acquired Surly Pacer. It has a longer stem than I need. I may be opting for mustache handlebars and using the Surly brake levers and shifters, which are connected, or just buy a shorter stem. Since I plan on doing more commuting, the mustache bars will probably be more useful. I have had to make some adjustments to almost all my bikes.

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  36. Mustache bars are weird. Some people like them but I'd make sure they agree with me first. Particularly look at how the levers are and where your hands need to be in traffic in order to brake.

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  37. re: riv and carbon vs steel forks:

    I feel that GP's "philosophy/ad copy is part dogma and part conventional wisdom. Much of it is stuff i agree with, but ppl who ride for transportation have been espousing this stuff for eons. The carbon fork thing? Well, those forks haven't been around long, and it seems they're getting better. But i know several ppl who have snapped carbon forks, and aluminum forks as well. On the other hand, while i know dozens of ppl whose steel forks have failed by bending, i only know one guy who *snapped* steel forks, and he was dirtjumping at the time.

    Being fat and careless, i'll join GP in his dream of steel forks forever.
    -rob

    ps-drop the stem in the Sam's steerer tube before you do anything rash

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  38. I had a Cannondale R-800 road bike for many years and late in my owning it decided to make it more "comfortable" raised the bars with an extender put speedz fenders on it etc and I found I when I was done I had a pile of mediocrity... it wasn't a great road bike and it wasn't a great comfort bike so I decided go the other direction and turned it back to its "racer boy" roots double chain ring aggressive bar position etc and it was fun to ride again. I have since acquired a nice steel framed (Handsome Devil) all rounder and it works great as my comfort fat tired fendered bike. If you can afford it and have the space having more than one bike make sense if you want to both commute and do fast road riding. Now if I can just find the right 3 speed project bike.......

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  39. "the Seven will feel weird when you switch back"

    Oddly, the Seven did not feel weird even when I rode it for the first time. It was more like an "a-ha!" moment.

    For those suggesting that I may want the original fit back if I cycle long distance: Is there any reason why an excessively short stem is good for touring?.. Genuinely curious.

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  40. excessively short stems have no advantage for a touring-style bike, unless necessary to get your position right. Ideally, if anything, you'd have a stem on the longer side on a touring bike. This is especially true if you carry any loads up front. But, i wouldnt worry so much about a few mm on your stem; drop the bars a bit and see how that goes.

    -rob

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  41. Rob - there is no more room in the head tube to lower the bars even further, so I would need to get a different stem for that anyhow.

    But what I am saying is that I distinctly feel as if not enough of my body is over the front of the bike; the bike feels poorly balanced front-to-back.

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  42. Loaded touring - not the original position but modified and not a stem length issue per se, but a front/back weight distribution thing, depending on what you load where including yourself. Experiment, don't get rid of take-off parts.

    Also a comfort thing.

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  43. Years ago say 55 or so when I first started riding, you could get adjustable "track" stems. Where did they go? they were and would still be the answer to determining the best length.Track riders used them all the time and I even saw them on a few Schwinn Paramount road bikes. yes I know that dates me but Damn it Spock they worked!!

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  44. Loaded touring - not the original position but modified and not a stem length issue per se, but a front/back weight distribution thing, depending on what you load where including yourself. Experiment, don't get rid of take-off parts.

    Exactly. Velouria commented long ago about how her Sam Hillborne's steering feels the same whether or not she has the front bag loaded. Normally this defies the prediction for a bike with front trail in the high 50mm range, which this bike has. However, when you distribute the rider's weight more over the rear wheel, it lightens the load on the front wheel. This accounts for why Velouria's SH can handle as well with or without a front load. If she were to move her riding position more forward and cause more of her weight--let's say 5% of her weight for argument's sake--that would now introduce over 6 lbs additional weight over the front wheel. It would be interesting to learn how the bike would handle with a full bag in that scenario. The bike may have been designed with this in mind.

    I did an interesting experiment recently, in which I weighed some of my bikes at the front and rear wheels with me on them, in the typical riding position for each respective bike. It was *very* interesting to learn that on some bikes, the weight distribution is near 50/50, while on other bikes it is closer to 60/40. Factors such as chainstay length, seat tube angle, top tube length, stem extension and rider position all affect the weight distribution.

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  45. Where was the Shogun? The Trek? Did you use two bathroom scales?

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  46. Shogun was 52/48, with longish chainstays.

    Trek was 57/43, with short chainstays.

    Both bikes have 73 degree seat tubes, the same top tube length, and the same stem length. However, the bikes were outfitted differently: the Shogun had a front dynamo hub, front rack, and rando bag attached. The Trek had none of those. That may have skewed the distribution significantly.

    I used one bathroom scale that has proven to be fairly accurate (+/- 0.5 lb). One wheel was on the scale, while the other was on a phone book the same thickness as the scale (to keep the bike level). I then mounted the bike and assumed the natural riding position while my wife just supported the bike laterally from falling. I took the average of three readings, which didn't differ by more than 0.5 lb. And to ensure that the scale was accurately reporting the weight (I was concerned that a narrow wheel may not distribute the weight broadly enough on the scale for it to accurately report), I also weighed myself on the scale while holding the bike suspended in my hands. That value was always +/- 1.0lb of the combined readings from both wheels. That's an error of about 0.5%.

    I did this experiment more to determine the optimal tire pressures for my front and rear wheels, but the different results from bike to bike made me think much more about geometries and how they affect weight distribution! food for thought...

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  47. I'm a recent follower and really enjoy the aesthetic, transport and sporty stuff pretty much equally. There seems to be a lot of unproven theories and marketing hype about what makes a road bike fast and in most cases the odd pound of bike weight or extra frame stiffness will not make a difference. I'm in the process of building what I regard as a lovely and fast classic racer that will have no problem keeping up with modern bikes and will outlast them for certain. It is possible to build a fast bike without resorting to carbon,aluminum or garish logos.. a few examples:
    http://www.mercianblog.com/2010/05/steves-new-853-os-pro-lugless.html
    http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/roadeo-frameset/50-618

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