tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post8711777442517404152..comments2024-03-29T04:01:31.445-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Lugwork PreferencesVelouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-60033732271715561582011-01-26T15:21:54.281-05:002011-01-26T15:21:54.281-05:00E in Ireland - Poor dear, forced to ride a Vincito...E in Ireland - Poor dear, forced to ride a Vincitore because your regular bike was stolen! Although personally, I think the Mercian Vincitore is an entirely different animal compared to the Hetchins Latin series. The Mercian is downright Puritanical in comparison. Anyhow, if you tire of that pesky lugwork, just shoot me an email for my address - I have family in Ireland if that'e more convenient for you! - And I do have some nice, plain-lugged bikes to trade you of course : )) <br /><br />hbuckles and Gregory - Thanks so much for stopping by, I have been staring at those pictures longingly for some time : )Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-74591589826786270902011-01-26T12:32:17.858-05:002011-01-26T12:32:17.858-05:00MT cyclist: "But would anybody in their right...MT cyclist: "But would anybody in their right mind turn down a Hetchins or Mercian frame if it came their way?"<br /><br />I'm living proof as regards this comment. I've always loved lugs but rather disdained (in a modernist straight-line kinda way) of the curly hetchins ones. Then, after my old road bike was stolen, I stumbled across a neglected and discarded Vincitore special frame for a song and simply couldnt walk away. <br /><br />I dressed it up in subtle modern mono-tone colours and gear to try and play down the baroque aspects that are just not my style... and now after many months I've come to love my "hand-carved" lugs. But if I ever do get a repaint, I think I'll probably get a one-tone throughout respray and outline the lugs in a very subtle dark grey-silver.<br /><br />What particularly converted me to the lugs was randomnly running into one of the last remaining long retired lug-cutters in England. He used to work for Claud Butler amongst others and cut many a spectacular nervex lug. After speaking to him I had a whole new perspective on this labour intensive art-form that was based on a select group of working class artisans.<br /><br />Love all the gorgeous bike photos... keep it up.<br />E. [in Ireland]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-29627659223520009182011-01-26T11:27:32.827-05:002011-01-26T11:27:32.827-05:00Hello,
I love your blog! You cant imagine my sur...Hello,<br /><br />I love your blog! You cant imagine my surprise to be scrolling down the page and see the Nervex lugs of my 1959 W & E Pollard track bike! (the first one pictured in this blog). Stay warm out there!<br /><br />cheers,<br />"hbuckles"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-73580773552685512482011-01-25T17:27:40.258-05:002011-01-25T17:27:40.258-05:00Velouria,
Thank You so much for using the photo of...Velouria,<br />Thank You so much for using the photo of one of my bikes in your article. <br />I lean towards more understated designs but every once in a while it's fun to go wild. My favourite lug is the Prugnat I style and that's what I was using as inspiration with the Pacenti's on that bike.Gregory Townsend Cycleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13543006178400154686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-66447207566155424922011-01-24T09:27:40.128-05:002011-01-24T09:27:40.128-05:00behoovingmoving - Thanks, his work looks beautiful...behoovingmoving - Thanks, his work looks beautiful! I especially like his solution to making the lug spacing on a small frame look elegant (<a href="http://www.llewellynbikes.com/gallery2/d/7217-2/IMG_0001+_Large_.jpg" rel="nofollow">here</a>).<br /><br />Justine - Thanks for sharing your Miss Mercian experience. That is pretty much what they told me in 2009, but Rob has a way of making me question my own memories : ) <br /><br />Regarding the non-fancy lugs on Italian roadbikes: When my 1983 Bianchi arrived, imagine my amazement when it turned out to have the same exact lugwork as my 1982 Trek. What the *&)^...Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-76909126092946621312011-01-24T06:05:47.236-05:002011-01-24T06:05:47.236-05:00As Australia Day is 2 days away, I must whisper th...As Australia Day is 2 days away, I must whisper this name in your lugs: Darrell McCulloch, NAHBS champion lug maker, based in Australia.<br /><br />http://www.llewellynbikes.com/gallery2/v/The+Llewellyn+Frame+Collection/album89/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-48786723588280493092011-01-24T01:45:31.483-05:002011-01-24T01:45:31.483-05:00I got my Miss Mercian in August. I chose it even ...I got my Miss Mercian in August. I chose it even though it doesn't have the twin laterals because, given my experience with the other two Mercians I ride, I trust their designs and workmanship. Happily, the ride of the bike is up to what my other Mercians offer.<br /><br />When I asked, they told me that not only the lugs, but also the stays for the twin laterals, are no longer made. They said that those builders who make bikes that way are either making their own tubes and lugs for the purpose or are having some small company make them.Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-72112775401666794062011-01-23T21:18:30.820-05:002011-01-23T21:18:30.820-05:00When I first started cycling, the best bikes had N...When I first started cycling, the best bikes had Nervex lugs. They are like the ones in the first photo and on the white frame with the red pinstriping. Then, the long-point Italian-style lugs came into favor. Fancy lugs all but disappeared. Can you imagine Nervex lugs with one of those awful 80's paintjobs?<br /><br />That question brings me to my point: The care that goes into the lugwork matters more than what kind it is. I'd rather see clean "gaspipe" lugs than fancy ones with sloppy work. <br /><br />I think that the lugs, paintjob and overall bike design should complement each other. Ditto for non-lugged frames: The way the frame is joined together should reflect, above all, good craft and attention to detail. For years, I rode a very nice fillet-brazed frame. It also had a fancy paintjob, so I think fancy lugwork would have been a bit much.Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-57819647308849784192011-01-22T22:21:51.565-05:002011-01-22T22:21:51.565-05:00"Jagged broken pipe..."
I love that! I..."Jagged broken pipe..."<br /><br />I love that! I've always wondered about the lugwork on my Raleighs and until I had several, thought I'd somehow got one made by a crew in Nottingham that had enjoyed too many pints with lunch.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03825454524437359677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-61070620135725800012011-01-22T09:45:47.450-05:002011-01-22T09:45:47.450-05:00rob - Of all the new Miss Mercians I know of, none...rob - Of all the new Miss Mercians I know of, none have the supporting stays. But I would be surprised if customers intentionally "opt out" of that version. It's more likely that Mercian planned to offer it, but it turned out not to be feasible. Maybe I'll ask them. The older twin stay version is no longer possible, that I know from having asked myself. They ran out of the lugs necessary to make these and did not produce a new batch (probably because there was not sufficient demand to justify it). Though they probably could handmake just one set of lugs specifically for a single bike, the cost of doing that would be higher than customers were willing to pay. In any case, their answer to me in the summer 2009 was "no, we can't do that anymore."Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-82052042058548774452011-01-22T09:31:50.801-05:002011-01-22T09:31:50.801-05:00Veloria,
the mercian site says they build the mis...Veloria,<br /><br />the mercian site says they build the miss mercian with a single toptube but twin lateral stays to the dropouts. The pictured miss mercian currently featured lacks the extra stays, but this is a customer's bike, and they likely "opted out" of the stays. I have an older mercian catalog with the miss mercian pictured featuring twin lateral toptubes continuing to the twin lateral stays, like the typical mixtes of yesteryear. I'm curious to know if mercian will still make miss mercians with twin stays? They are a custom shop...<br /><br />No love for the mercian pro lugless, or the beautiful fillet-brazed frames on offer from bilenky, engin, curtlo, and many others? The seamless look is, to my eye, very appealing.<br /><br />As for the hetchins, esp the curly stay ones: they have their appeal, but I'm as likely to wear a tutu as i am to ride one of those.<br /><br />-robScreechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397676711365438175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-75660498525094463632011-01-22T00:01:34.851-05:002011-01-22T00:01:34.851-05:00I still think that the pictures you posted of the ...I still think that the pictures you posted of the rear triangle on your custom mixte are a fantastic example of the little details!<br />http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/02/lovely-details-and-elegant-solutions.htmldweendaddynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-21451489467532301562011-01-21T23:04:19.055-05:002011-01-21T23:04:19.055-05:00MT cyclist - Yes, I honestly would turn a Hetchins...MT cyclist - Yes, I honestly would turn a Hetchins away if the condition of it being given to me was that I had to keep it (as opposed to being able to sell it or give it away). I don't see the sense in owning things that I am not passionate about but would make someone else very happy.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-7660285574932729712011-01-21T22:56:09.095-05:002011-01-21T22:56:09.095-05:00Many of those lugs look as if they're from the...Many of those lugs look as if they're from the Rococo Period. I tend to prefer lugs that are a little more understated and utilitarian. But would anybody in their right mind turn down a Hetchins or Mercian frame if it came their way?<br />By happenstance I have been reading about Tom Ritchey's fillet brazed mountain bike frames from the early 80s. A completely different aesthetic, but they're quite elegant in their own way and perhaps underappreciated.MT cyclisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17451590809473759574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-91484438717607728122011-01-21T21:27:00.346-05:002011-01-21T21:27:00.346-05:00I Love lugged steel bikes. I like all of the ones ...I Love lugged steel bikes. I like all of the ones you have in the photos although there are a couple/few that I really like.<br />I don't think I would want a bike without lugs.JimPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-60508409234283264332011-01-21T20:47:28.522-05:002011-01-21T20:47:28.522-05:00I'm in love with the ornate lugs. Unfortunatel...I'm in love with the ornate lugs. Unfortunately, all of my bikes have the utilitarian, Raleigh lugs but it's fun to consider the alternatives. For example, those "Franklin Mint" chrome floral lugs that Mike McLennan posted are some of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. Given that so much of what I deal with on a daily basis from cars to utinsils to appliances are all geared towards simplicity and utility over beauty, sometimes it's just nice to see something made intentionally beautiful, even if it is ultimately unnecessary for the function of the bicycle.MFarringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00050234723125733522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-43210601420804689472011-01-21T19:11:16.185-05:002011-01-21T19:11:16.185-05:00rob - I've been looking at Mercian for the pas...rob - I've been looking at Mercian for the past year and a half or so. They used to offer a twin stay mixte, and a coupe of acquaintances enthusiastically recommended it to me when I was looking for one. Of course at that exact time, Mercian discontinued it and replaced it with the single tube step through model. Interestingly, I also initially thought the Vincitore lugs were too ornate, but grew to like them over time. And if I were to get a Mercian, it would definitely be a Vincitore - because I think the price is worth it considering that you're getting *hand made* proprietary lugwork. That lugset has been in continuous production, by Mercian only, since the '60s, which to me is very exciting. And while I couldn't care less what the people in the coffee shop think of my bike, for me that sort of thing is meaningful.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-28056936791184876282011-01-21T18:46:07.105-05:002011-01-21T18:46:07.105-05:00Velouria, I'm hoping in March for my Truss bik...Velouria, I'm hoping in March for my Truss bike, I ordered it last August. My wife, Daughter and I visited a museum show in NYC last summer, that's when I layed my eyes on Mikes bikes for the first time and had to get one. I think it was the black frame, red rims and cream tires - just killer. It looks like a modern antique. I can't wait!!Dave Talsmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-73127447767267051432011-01-21T18:32:05.342-05:002011-01-21T18:32:05.342-05:00i'm with somervillain; fillet-brazing is start...i'm with somervillain; fillet-brazing is starting to really appeal to me. When i'm dreaming of a new mercian, i sometimes find myself torn between the simple lugs of the king of mercia, versus the ostentation of the vincitore special. Surprising, given that the first time i saw a pic of a vincitore, i thought it was way too flamboyant. However, the upcharge for the fancy lugs isn't worth it, as they do nothing to improve the bikes functionality. (The longer BB lugs on the vince special are the fancy lug version of the mercian professional, and serve to stiffen the frame.)<br /><br />The fact that i already have 4 vintage lugged frames around the house, however, makes me think that, when i get a nice new bike, it'd need something to make it stand out from the fujis and miyatas, which makes the vincitore more appealing. Then, i remember the pro lugless, with the sleek fillet brazing. To the cute remark above about a preference for fillet brazing being a precursor to carbon fiber addiction, i simply remind folks that the oldest mercian in existence is a fillet brazed model. <br /><br />walt D's quote of wikipedia is helpful, but it lacks mention of air-hardened steel alloys, which get stronger at the joint with welding. Further, we need to remember that fillet brazing doesn't involve welding, either. It can be rather heavy, though.<br /><br />my vote? if you love lugs, conviction trumps facade, and the fancy lugs will show your appreciation for lugwork in a bigger way. If you like understated lugs, craigslist is littered with affordable frames from the 80s, and the folks at the coffee shop, along with the carbon fibre set, won't be able to tell your 2011 bob jackson from the next guy's 1988 fuji tivoli, anyway. ( but you will, and that's what matters. But who admires their own lugwork while riding?)<br /><br />-robScreechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397676711365438175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-36306639167790967792011-01-21T17:32:48.822-05:002011-01-21T17:32:48.822-05:00Velouria said...
"I have seen lugged cruisers...Velouria said...<br />"I have seen lugged cruisers in Europe. Do you think they are American imports? I wish I'd paid closer attention now."<br /><br />Yes, you may have and the cruisers you saw very well could have been Workman since they export worldwide. <br /><br />It's as I said, to the best of my knowledge Worksman produces the only lugged cruiser today for mainly the industrial market. <br /><br />As to the braze vs welding of frames.....<br />Nothing stands still so one only has to hope that the maker is choosing the best method for their product line. It's as I said, one will aid in ride qualities where the other will not so it's really what the maker was shooting for with that frame design. It's very much like the aluminum vs steel frame discussion since they each bring different features to the table.Walt Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-63122899873905214972011-01-21T16:36:28.370-05:002011-01-21T16:36:28.370-05:00Dave - I am getting one myself in the future, it&#...Dave - I am getting one myself in the future, it's just a matter of when. I keep saying that I like Mike's work, so I think it's time to prove it : ) When will yours be ready? <br /><br />Walt - From what I've seen, it seems to me that custom builders today are lugged/non-lugged 50/50. And the ones that use TIG-welding do seem to believe that brazing is no longer superior. I keep hearing both points of view, but do not understand enough on this topic to form a real opinion. Perhaps with time I will.<br /><br />I have seen lugged cruisers in Europe. Do you think they are American imports? I wish I'd paid closer attention now.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-70716656104266635662011-01-21T16:29:34.939-05:002011-01-21T16:29:34.939-05:00Velouria, I like that you like the Truss frame. I ...Velouria, I like that you like the Truss frame. I love it so much I have one on order. I have had many bikes in my lifetime, this is one that I actually dream about getting and riding. Ahh, those warm days to come (temp is currently 12° out!).Dave Talsmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-21943164825184793102011-01-21T16:02:44.033-05:002011-01-21T16:02:44.033-05:00I failed to mention that Worksman makes the only l...I failed to mention that Worksman makes the only lugged production cruiser in the world today. My Worksman bike is the best of heavy duty ,and smooth ride, frame in production today <br />They have been building them that way for over 100 years.Walt Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-14672681095982637092011-01-21T15:28:05.893-05:002011-01-21T15:28:05.893-05:00Velouria said...
"Walt - but do they really? ...Velouria said...<br />"Walt - but do they really? Supposedly that is no longer the case, given modern TIG-welding and fillet brazing technologies. What are your thoughts on that?"<br /><br />The best , and shortest, way to answer this is to quote wiki.....<br />"From the late 19th century until the 1970s,[2] this method of frame construction was favored because the lower temperatures of brazing (silver brazing in particular) had less of a negative impact on the tubing strength than high temperature welding, which can seriously weaken many steel alloys. Brazing thus allowed relatively thin walled, lightweight tubes to be used without loss of strength. However, recent advances in metallurgy have created steel tubing that is not adversely affected (or may even be improved) by high temperature welding. This has allowed both TIG and MIG welding to displace lugged steel construction,[8] in large part because these methods lend themselves more easily to automation and reduce the cost by eliminating the lugs."<br /><br />Welding offers the chance to burn though or crystallize the joint in a hidden fashion which on thin bicycle tube isn't good at all. Brazing allows the joint to flex ever so slightly which reduces shock impacts greatly giving a bit of extra spring to the frame not available otherwise. <br /><br />All that said, Custom builders know these hidden advantages of brazing as well as the dangers of welding which is why ,IMO, they almost to the man prefer brazed lugs over TIG welds. TIG welds benefit mass frame producers since they can be machine done where brazing can't easily be machine done. It's all about cost to a maker whereas it's all about quality with the custom maker.Walt Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-75023741532444681472011-01-21T14:48:05.704-05:002011-01-21T14:48:05.704-05:00somervillain - The close-ups of the Bilenky tandem...somervillain - The close-ups of the Bilenky tandem looked impressive in BQ. I think the combination of lugged and non-lugged joints on that bike, as well as the pinstriping, were exceptionally well thought out. Sometimes too much lugwork can be - well, too much. I also like the way fillet brazing is done by Icarus. However, I have to admit that both with the Bilenky tandem and with Icarus, these are "admirations from afar." The ANT Truss frame is really the only non lugged bike I can imagine myself riding. Well, maybe something by Geekhouse as well, with a segmented fork...<br /><br />M.Pewthers - Oh, I see. Not a fan of oversized tubing, but it's nice that there is an option for beautiful lugwork for those who do like it.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.com