tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post8455599396976678652..comments2024-03-27T05:14:23.738-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: In Appreciation of John ForesterVelouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-53955726449320748992014-03-13T12:47:59.019-04:002014-03-13T12:47:59.019-04:00It does give new riders an ability to cope with th...It does give new riders an ability to cope with their fear. But it does so by appealing to a "My balls are biggest philosophy". Will it keep you alive? Forester loves to claim that the evidence supports him but if you read the studies he references (when he bothers to) they don't support his bolder assertions like taking the whole lane. In fact, the usually don't say anything about it at all. Forester is a master at appealing to peoples general poor risk assessment ability (hey, mine suck too!) and avoiding actual empirical evidence. P-Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783568193630329886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-22625320247110442212013-08-16T17:08:25.542-04:002013-08-16T17:08:25.542-04:00Criticizing Forester is in bad form, like criticiz...Criticizing Forester is in bad form, like criticizing Lincoln, because he didn't free the slaves on his first day in office. Or criticizing Franklin, because he didn't discover the General Theory of Relativity. We need historical perspective.Bob Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555812362760607126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-44470669969123688152012-10-06T21:19:09.033-04:002012-10-06T21:19:09.033-04:00Sorry Peter, Forester has misled you along with ma...Sorry Peter, Forester has misled you along with many others. Cycle facilities make cycling safer and more attractive. The hard data prove Forester to be wrong. <br /><br />The Netherlands has a very high rate of cycling, people of all ages and abilities ride bikes every day, there's tons of cycle infrastructure, and yet it has the best cycling safety record too. The whole country is living proof that infrastructure works, it increases the amount of cycling and improves the safety of cyclists. (It also reduces traffic jams!)<br /><br />Your irrational fears of being banned from the roads are a separate issue which should be fought on its own terms! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-1624322745153531552012-10-02T20:50:31.816-04:002012-10-02T20:50:31.816-04:00God bless John Forrester and his book. I rode in B...God bless John Forrester and his book. I rode in Boston, Somerville and Cambridge for years without any major incidents because of his sound advice. My only accident was going down a steep hill headed toward Winter Hill, when a young child, crying, "I'm Superman!" launched himself into my path. My brakes saved Superman from injury but I flew off the bike. No injuries. urbansocrateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04736720241492467377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-1082895614329242332012-09-07T09:22:15.262-04:002012-09-07T09:22:15.262-04:00I absolutely agree. Forester's approach to man...I absolutely agree. Forester's approach to managing yourself in traffic will keep you alive. But he helped inspire a movement of people who argue against infrastructure for cycling ("useful idiots" for the car companies one might posit.)<br /><br />In my town, the only organized voices that have spoken against bike lanes have been the local business association and certain cycling groups.<br /><br />Only 3% of the population are hardy enough and brave enough to ride a long commute without infrastructure. It is time for cycling to become more than a domain for the very hardiest riders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-5347760676015897092012-07-17T16:33:42.208-04:002012-07-17T16:33:42.208-04:00Hembrow addresses "all those excuses". H...Hembrow addresses "all those excuses". Here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html. A quick look is not allways enough :-) <br /><br />And I can tell you that Forester is as stubborn as ever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-58803496861358812872012-07-16T13:34:54.460-04:002012-07-16T13:34:54.460-04:00in my experience, many if not most VC cyclists sup...in my experience, many if not most VC cyclists support well planned infrastructure. most of us are simply trying to get from point A to B safely. stereotyping us is not helpful. <br /><br />in fact, it seems to me that those advocating for separated infrastructure are taking steadily more extreme positions. in pdx there has been criticism of cyclists taking the lane on commercial thoroughfares from so-called cycling advocates. in the netherlands and denmark infrastructure is built on arterials and major commercial thoroughfares while here is the usa the tendency has been to shunt cyclists out of the way. i refuse to be a second class road user.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-91001517402880874412012-07-13T17:10:47.998-04:002012-07-13T17:10:47.998-04:00Your post lacks both geographic and historic conte...Your post lacks both geographic and historic context. A quick look at Hembrow's blog, which I am sure is valuable, leads me to conclude that it addresses conditions that are not typically found in the US, and Hembrow was nought but a glimmer in his mamma's eye when Forester wrote his book. <br /><br />Give the man some credit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-38978532274124449422012-07-12T19:41:01.598-04:002012-07-12T19:41:01.598-04:00Indeed. VC will work splendidly where speed limits...Indeed. VC will work splendidly where speed limits are very low. And as the Dutch generally practice "twenty is plenty" in city centres and residential areas, well... :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-35151603934342779992012-07-11T23:56:44.467-04:002012-07-11T23:56:44.467-04:00As it turns out, yes, I do know several anti-infra...As it turns out, yes, I do know several anti-infrastructure VC nutjobs, and in Seattle and Portland, no less. Crazy is everywhere, just in different proportions. ;-)Scott Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03987782458799457099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-8183827111432982262012-07-11T21:44:27.216-04:002012-07-11T21:44:27.216-04:00If you visit John Forester's own web site, you...If you visit John Forester's own web site, you will see that he continues to actively oppose all bicycle infrastructure as well as all organizations that advocate for bicycle infrastructure. http://www.johnforester.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-23213585819920594182012-07-11T20:51:42.605-04:002012-07-11T20:51:42.605-04:00I'm absolutely certain that the Dutch model is...I'm absolutely certain that the Dutch model is the safest for all traffic: Divide it after weight, speed and direction. It has worked: 40 years ago, their number of traffic fatalities per million km. were equal to the American. Today, it's only 50%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32934398025315545162012-07-11T20:47:49.543-04:002012-07-11T20:47:49.543-04:00Actually, even crappy bike infrastructure (like wh...Actually, even crappy bike infrastructure (like what you can find from, say, London on Youtube) seems to increase safety. The thing is, Forester has repeated his 35 years old findings, that on streets and roads without bike lanes, intersections are where most accidents happen, for so long that most people now believe him. And he's right about the number of accidents, but the majority of fatalities are between intersections. foresters response: "There are fates that are worse than death". Oh well...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-29442103479092396462012-07-11T20:33:20.216-04:002012-07-11T20:33:20.216-04:00There's really no need for Forester when it co...There's really no need for Forester when it comes to planning bike infrastructure. You can read just about everything you need to know on David Hembrow's blog "A View From The Cycle Path".<br /><br />The problem with John Forester's teachings is that he's so uncompromising. Sure, he's got quite a few points about how to survive in a bike-unfriendly environment, but in some cases he's plain and simple wrong. "Taking the lane" should certainly not allways be done where he recommends it.<br /><br />The man certainly loves cycling, but on the whole, I tend to believe that he's done more harm than good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-68704655081447511942012-07-11T17:49:30.915-04:002012-07-11T17:49:30.915-04:00John Forester actively fought against bike lanes a...John Forester actively fought against bike lanes and paths when he lived in Palo Alto. Some of that story can be found in Mapes's book, "Cycling Revolution." <br /><br />I find it interesting to note that Stanford University, within minutes of Palo Alto, has a wonderful set of Dutch-style bicycle paths around its campus. I used them extensively when I was there in the 1980s, as did most student. The center of campus is closed off to motor vehicles. Forester may have used the Stanford paths in his safety "experiments." I never thought about it much, then, as I came from a town without paths, too, but I do remember having to think about traffic whenever I left campus for a haircut or to pick up a new CD. Riding on campus was a lot easier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-9203665502363246902012-07-11T13:46:20.282-04:002012-07-11T13:46:20.282-04:00How about this mix of VC and infrastructure? A qui...How about this mix of VC and infrastructure? A quick round of Amsterdam's center:<br />http://schlijper.nl/120710-00-amsterdam-city-center-tour.photo<br /><br />No opposition at all. VC where there is no infrastructure.Frits Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32639202509770861722012-07-11T12:57:22.103-04:002012-07-11T12:57:22.103-04:00I think the sidewalk bike lanes are a cop-out. I t...I think the sidewalk bike lanes are a cop-out. I tried some in Berlin and didn't like them. There needs to be a kerb between the cyclists and pedestrians, otherwise pedestrians come to find cylists a nuisance, which is really quite sad.<br /><br />I believe cycle paths are compulsory in Germany (as they are here in Sweden) which is really annoying given their poor quality. It also makes motorists more aggressive. I find most Swedish motorists are kind and polite, but they don't like it when I'm not on the crappy bike path.Erik Sandblomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14411108063216855210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-72559400545269734042012-07-11T11:48:11.817-04:002012-07-11T11:48:11.817-04:00Davis had bike lanes, bike trails everywhere - bot...Davis had bike lanes, bike trails everywhere - both on campus and all around town. In 1970. In fact, well before I arrived. Signs greeting you into town said, "Davis, home of 30,000 people and 30,000 bicycles." <br />This should NOT be generalized to all of California. Davis was a little utopia community that demonstrated how life could be. Los Angeles (terrible smog back then) was not. San Francisco (wheel eating abandoned cable car tracks) was not.Phil Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06588332937109449568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-16304929226146695182012-07-11T11:42:44.299-04:002012-07-11T11:42:44.299-04:00this nut is trotted out repeatedly by those who sm...this nut is trotted out repeatedly by those who smear VC cyclists. do you or caroline personally know a VC cyclist who hates bike lanes or are you perhaps just letting your prejudice show?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-42829351786744181442012-07-11T10:58:40.330-04:002012-07-11T10:58:40.330-04:00The reasons many VC cyclists oppose infrastructure...The reasons many VC cyclists oppose infrastructure are mostly two-fold:<br />1) They actually do little to nothing to improve safety and therefore give a false sense of security to beginning bicyclsits. They may decrease safety for bicyclists who know how to bicycle in a VC manner; and<br />2)There is some worry cyclists will eventually be restricted to streets with facilities. This may make VC cyclists less safe and ( more importantly IMO) make it harder to use a bicycle for transportation.<br /><br />I actually agree with the first statement, unsure about the second. But I do know that many beginning ( and even advanced) bicyclists feel that bicycling is more acceptable and they get less hostile reactions from motorists on streets with facilities.<br /><br /> So maybe, even if the facilites make cyclists a less less safe, they are worth it. I'm not sure yet.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01835466294966921439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-55020887087808632412012-07-11T01:46:11.707-04:002012-07-11T01:46:11.707-04:00Dallas's bike coordinator for many years was o...Dallas's bike coordinator for many years was one of those flaming VCers who hates infrastructure. His proudest accomplishment was tearing out the last mile of bike lane in all of Dallas before he was fired. The whole infuriating story is at:<br /><br />http://www.dallasobserver.com/2009-11-26/news/dallas-former-bike-czar-tells-newbie-riders-to-go-play-in-traffic/Scott Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03987782458799457099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32791964386041740742012-07-10T21:52:07.444-04:002012-07-10T21:52:07.444-04:00Where did you ever get this idea? I am a flaming V...Where did you ever get this idea? I am a flaming VCer and am also supportive of infrastructure. I have never met one of those mythical VCers who allegedly hate all bike lanes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-46934138674122862802012-07-10T21:11:02.852-04:002012-07-10T21:11:02.852-04:00I like his ideas on how to ride in traffic, which ...I like his ideas on how to ride in traffic, which I learned by doing and by learning how to drive - after, a bicycle is now considered a vehicle in Massachusetts.<br /><br />I am agnostic on the vehicular cycling vs bicycling infrastructure debate outside of the city. I am happy to have the infrastructure inside the city. I find Mr. Forester's website overpowering.New England Bicyclisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16609454624593868118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-27845396617269908102012-07-10T21:01:41.551-04:002012-07-10T21:01:41.551-04:00Maybe my experience is peculiar, but I was biking ...Maybe my experience is peculiar, but I was biking in Florida before any edition of EC was ever in print, and we had a fair number of local races, and at least one century per year, plus a regular time-trial series in the winter not far from where I lived. The ideas were out there. There was no question, either from most law enforcement or from any of us, that we belonged in the street, and the the right-hand wheel position was the best place to be. We knew about visibility, we knew about eye contact, we did the whole same-rules thing. We did get some crap from rednecks, but frankly, some of us were rednecks, and we could drawl the drawl as well as any of them (I heard of at least one guy with a gun holster strapped to his stem). Only seriously obnoxious crap came from my peers, i.e., boneheaded teenage boys, and there's still remnants of that today.<br /><br />The stories I hear of California at the same time sound startlingly worse, which surprises me quite a lot, because Florida was kinda backwards. You combine rednecks with old people looking for a warm tax haven (no income tax, low taxes on mobile homes), you don't get progressive.<br /><br />The biggest difference for me, now, is that cars don't stink. Back then, if a car didn't pass you in a hurry and you got a lung-full of exhaust, you would just about throw up from all the CO that you inhaled.dr2chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16320828055999939449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-66007429925789388692012-07-10T20:32:58.199-04:002012-07-10T20:32:58.199-04:00I used to be opposed to bike lanes (let alone bike...I used to be opposed to bike lanes (let alone bike paths, a whole other issue) because typically they're alongside parking lanes and right in the "door zone", and I felt that it encouraged a false sense of security among inexperienced riders, while riders who knew about car doors would end up riding to the left of the bike lane half the time anyway. But as we've gotten more and more of them around the Boston area, I've decided that even if that may still be the case, in practice the bike lane still creates a little more space, a buffer zone between traffic and parked cars. <br />That said, I spent two years in Germany in a smallish, modern city where most of the infrastructure is relatively new and in good condition. But the bike lanes were on the sidewalk. They were a royal pain for someone like me who was commuting ~8 mi from a suburb because they were slow, and I found myself frequently taking longer routes that allowed me to use faster roads and avoid the sidewalk bike lanes. But I can't deny that they probably were better for the kids on their way to school and the Omas and Opas (grandmas and grandpas) on their way to the grocery store. So although I hated using them myself, I suspect that their prevalence was indirectly a contributing factor in the good behavior of drivers toward cyclists which I very much appreciated.Emily OBrienhttp://www.dillpicklegear.comnoreply@blogger.com