tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post7302330614763525385..comments2024-03-18T08:41:35.438-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Moultons, Modern and VintageVelouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-55556277761595426192013-10-20T09:12:11.298-04:002013-10-20T09:12:11.298-04:00If you care about what you ride, you would judge i...If you care about what you ride, you would judge it based on how the moultons ride, not judging it based on some preconceived idea about what bikes should look like or what lawyers would think. <br /><br />Brompton and moulton are very different bikes built with different objectives. The vbrakes being dangerous on small wheels is a silly comment.<br /><br />A few moultons came into my possession not by virtue of being expensive. I also have a Raleigh twenty, a bikefriday tandem i share with my daughter. And countless full size italian racers from bygone era. If i had to choose just one, it will likely be one of the Moultons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-90468431035305327662013-07-01T08:20:07.097-04:002013-07-01T08:20:07.097-04:00I too have come to this thread rather late. I have...I too have come to this thread rather late. I have a collection of 5 bikes built up over 30 or more years,ranging from a traditional tourer on which I have ridden from Lands End to John o' Groats with laden panniers to a lightweight Bianchi which I've raced and time trialled. I've also had a Moulton TSR30 since 2009 and I keep finding it to be my "go to" bike for all sorts of riding from local rides to 200 KM Audax rides to an ascent of Mt. Ventoux. And I have to say that coming down Mt. Ventoux was the fastest descent I've ever made, feeling totally in control. It's as fast and at least as stable as a conventional bike but much more comfortable over a longer distance. I don't see any signs of cost cutting on my particular bike. Campagnolo Centaur gears and Chorus crank set, Miche hubs, Alex rims etc... And I have a rear luggage rack and front pannier rack. But prices may have increased with the weaker British Pound. The separated bike fits into 2 bags that fit the luggage racks of Eurostar and other European trains. I would probably say that if I could only one bike the Moulton would be a serious contender. It's good to see that cyclists comprise a broad church and we're all individuals. ;-)PJ (in Australia)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-4833637675122794672013-06-11T12:31:22.418-04:002013-06-11T12:31:22.418-04:00Hi, I just found your review of the Moulton TSR9....Hi, I just found your review of the Moulton TSR9. I have one of these as well as a very low price Dahon Vitesse folder, and a road bike. <br /><br />The UK price of the Moulton TSR9 is currently between £1200 and £1350 depending on the paint. It’s a compact bike with front and rear suspension, a nine speed drive, V-Brakes, and flat handlebars. The suspension damping can be adjusted, it can be locked solid (with a spanner) or the preload can be adjusted for the rider's weight. The frame is nicely finished, but Moulton, even at this price range fit the bike with low price components – the derailleur is an SRAM long cage – a short cage would fit, but maybe Moulton believe riders may want to upgrade to a triple crank. V-Brake levers are low-price MTB Avids as are the V-brakes<br /><br />There’s no side-stand, and it’s hard to fit one. There’s no luggage rack and Moulton ones are pricey. There is an adjustable stem for a small range of height adjustment, but the bike will not suit the petite. <br /><br /> Cost cutting is evident all over the bike. The serial number is not stamped into the frame (that I could find) but is a sticker. Wheels and hubs are low price Quando cup and cone, as on the Dahon. Chainset is a low-price Sturmey Archer. There’s no replaceable derailleur hanger – the frame needs a repair if you snap off the derailleur – unthinkable on a 21st century bike. The frame doesn’t fold, but can be separated into two pieces. The star-nut cover on the fork tube is cheap plastic. <br /><br />In comparison, the Dahon Vitesse has seven gears and a similar gear range, folds easily, has very similar components, is lighter than the Moulton, won’t rust, and the derailleur hides under the chainstays. It’s an altogether more complete design, rather than a series of compromises bolted to an expensive frame. It cost £350 new. <br /><br />What the Moulton is then, is a hand-made anachronistic expensive Brit throw-back suspension frame, with low-priced components. It rides pleasantly, but so does the Dahon. Even at £1200 the Moulton needs a short cage derailleur to tidy up the rear wheel and prevent frame breakages, at least. <br /><br />The problem is that the Moulton sells on its heritage. But 21st century bikes like the Dahon are similar equipped and more versatile. But, the Moulton has suspension. So, that’s kind of where I’m at; A Moulton owner, but not an impressed one. I mostly still ride the Dahon.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-22126295297262795482012-10-02T18:03:24.328-04:002012-10-02T18:03:24.328-04:00"See those V-brakes? Combined with small whee..."See those V-brakes? Combined with small wheels and... these stop like crazy. Grab the brake just a little too much and the fork will go through the whole suspension range and off you go."<br /><br />Here speaks the voice of conjecture and no experience.<br /><br />Well, my experience of riding 20 and 26 inch wheels extensively in all conditions is that there is little difference.<br /><br />As for the idea of flying over the handlebars on a Moulton TSR, just try it - it is almost impossible - since the suspension is designed effectively as anti-dive. My Bike Friday NWT, on the other hand is LETHAL - I've been over three times - once in a flying arc attempting not to hit a moronic pedestrian, who stepped out sideways at the last moment into the road without looking. So for law suits , start with Bike Friday. It has nothing to do with small wheels, just bad front end geometry.<br /><br />Overall the Moulton TSR is faster, more comfortable, stronger and safer than any Bike Friday I've tried, yet at the same time the frame is about 10 times more rigid (I travelled over 20,000km on a BF NWT).<br /><br />The TSR is also much more comfortable, stronger, more stable over rough ground and just as fast as a same weight 700c. A spaceframe Moulton holds the WORLD SPEED RECORD for an upright bicycle.<br /><br />The review above is really (almost satirically) weak - girl goes to shop, half tries a bike in snowy weather, and then presumes to evaluate it, lacking any imagination or insight. Ridiculous!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32117431571739984032011-11-06T17:52:39.106-05:002011-11-06T17:52:39.106-05:00Moulton designed the rubber donut suspension in or...Moulton designed the rubber donut suspension in original Mini Coopers.Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-27678539933764467132011-06-11T13:18:52.718-04:002011-06-11T13:18:52.718-04:00Hey Fred,
Yes, your right, I stand corrected.
Som...Hey Fred,<br /><br />Yes, your right, I stand corrected.<br />Somehow I wrote this backwards....<br /><br />John Ijohnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08034164289196863355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-33594187647106941432011-06-10T12:39:04.811-04:002011-06-10T12:39:04.811-04:00^ Just to clarify, that is not my quote about the ...^ Just to clarify, that is not my quote about the chainstays, but John I's.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-37421494799869078982011-06-10T12:30:20.308-04:002011-06-10T12:30:20.308-04:00johni said...
Velouria said:
BTW, the origin...johni said...<br /><br /> Velouria said:<br /><br />BTW, the original Moultons had straight<br /> chainstays, but then they made them<br /> bent because the original design was failing.<br /> Alex Moulton openly regrets designing<br /> the straight chainstay as a blunder<br /> of form over function.<br /><br /> John I<br /> March 1, 2011 3:50 AM <br /><br />In fact it is the other way round. The Series 1 had curved chainstays which twisted - in the UK Moulton Preservation can straighten and reinforce them. The series 2 and Mk3 had straight heavily reinforced chainstays, which are much tougher. I know because I've has all three models. Check Tony Hadlands books.<br />Fred in UK<br /><br />Interesting debate<br />FredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-54967052341101706182011-03-04T00:11:18.892-05:002011-03-04T00:11:18.892-05:00Three watts is the output of the generator -- it d...Three watts is the output of the generator -- it doesn't tell you much about how much kinetic energy is stored in the wheel. If you know the weight of the rim, tire, and tube, you can make a pretty good estimate for a given speed (you can make a good guess about the diameter of the center of mass of a cross-section of each one.Merlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13350335129704993638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-36651704879152820982011-03-03T12:00:37.124-05:002011-03-03T12:00:37.124-05:00Actually, it's very easy to measure the energy...Actually, it's very easy to measure the energy of a spinning wheel (albeit front). Turn on the 3W dynamo hub. The wheel will stop so quick your head will spin. :)<br /><br />Unfortunately, it's a real pain to spin up the front wheel anywhere fast.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-24856587610157673882011-03-02T23:48:57.699-05:002011-03-02T23:48:57.699-05:00MDI:
Also, what does energy have to do with it? I...MDI:<br /><br /><i>Also, what does energy have to do with it? It's not like a bike wheel can store any significant amount of energy. You need a heavy flywheel for that. You can stop dead a high-spinning wheel in the air with the slightest brake application.</i><br /><br />It's energy that matters, rather than inertia. The rider of a bicycle has to do work (i.e. energy) in order to get the wheel spinning (and to get the bike moving). For traveling at a constant speed, this is irrelevant, but for accelerating, it matters.<br /><br />Brakes are designed to give a lot of mechanical advantage, and they're meant to be able to stop both the wheel's rotation and the forward momentum of the rider. Of course it's trivial to stop a spinning wheel with a brake. Try doing it with your hand on the tire if you actually want to get a sense of how much angular momentum the wheel has (and, less directly, how much energy it has stored). Actually, please don't do that -- I wouldn't want you to get hurt.<br /><br />My point is simply that your estimates (and mine) of what percentage of the bike's kinetic energy is stored in the wheels are not likely to be very accurate. And since we're basically talking about racing bikes (that was Alex Moulton's purpose, at least in part, with the small-wheel design), that makes a bigger difference. The reason is that kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the speed, and about half of each wheel has a speed nearly double that of the bicycle and rider. That means that the faster you go, the larger the percentage of the bike's energy is stored in the wheels.Merlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13350335129704993638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-87760025325035937652011-03-02T22:00:07.282-05:002011-03-02T22:00:07.282-05:00Actually I wanted to propose Moultons a while ago ...Actually I wanted to propose Moultons a while ago to Velouria, but then I thought she gets similar mails probably a dozen a day. <br /><br />We have 5 Moultons in the family and they are almost the only bicycles we ride (in the meanwhile). We use the them daily for commuting and shopping and touring.<br /><br />I use an APB (as my TSR is not ready now, too many specialities built in) with a Rohloff Speedhub and my wife has a Bridgestone Moulton modified by Steve Parry (349 Wheels with disk brakes). <br />The Bridgestone is probably the fastest bicycle (with Scorcher tyres) we have, faster than a racer probably. And it has an innocent look. In summer I borrow it sometimes to give road racers a hard time. <br /><br />As mentioned before, it doesn't make sense to just try out a Moulton when you have no experience using them. They show their benefits after you are used to it. What some call 'instable' I call lively. Since using Moultons only hit a fracture of the obstacles (like potholes) as on a big wheeler (maybe 10% or less) . And I did not get the feeling that going over the handlebar is a bigger problem than with a bigwheeler and all the Moulton rider I know tell the same. Also the V brakes are not different from other bicycles (in real life!). <br /><br />And: Riding a Moulton is by far not similar to a Brompton. I prefer my Moulton especially on longer trips (this is for me >200km).PeLuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02913362330280161594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-11472220424425862072011-03-01T11:48:27.268-05:002011-03-01T11:48:27.268-05:00Merlin: Also, what does energy have to do with it?...Merlin: Also, what does energy have to do with it? It's not like a bike wheel can store any significant amount of energy. You need a heavy flywheel for that. You can stop dead a high-spinning wheel in the air with the slightest brake application.<br /><br />I am not saying that big wheels are as easy to spin as small wheels, I am saying that big wheels are SO easy to spin that it doesn't matter one bit.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-16649768102711461062011-03-01T11:45:03.641-05:002011-03-01T11:45:03.641-05:00Merlin: it's remarkably easy to get a regular ...Merlin: it's remarkably easy to get a regular bicycle wheel to 20 mph in the air.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-12207670988136293192011-03-01T03:50:35.826-05:002011-03-01T03:50:35.826-05:00Velouria said:
>I prefer the vintage f-frame.
...Velouria said:<br /><br />>I prefer the vintage f-frame.<br />>The new Bridgestone version<br />>has aluminum tubing with a<br />>unicrown fork and bent chainstays<br /><br />I thought you would not like those<br />features, but I would suggest you ride<br />it before judging it.<br />My personal opinion is that it<br />is the nicest riding Moulton.<br /><br />BTW, the original Moultons had straight<br />chainstays, but then they made them<br />bent because the original design was failing.<br />Alex Moulton openly regrets designing<br />the straight chainstay as a blunder<br />of form over function.<br /><br />John Ijohnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08034164289196863355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-36216663134716987792011-03-01T00:55:04.429-05:002011-03-01T00:55:04.429-05:00MDI:
I don't get this smaller wheels easier t...MDI:<br /><br /><i>I don't get this smaller wheels easier to spin thing. Yes, it's true that the rotational inertia in this case is hugely dependent on the radius, and so on, but...</i><br /><br />It's not "rotational inertia" (angular momentum) that matters -- it's energy. And, it turns out that it's only so dependent on the radius because that effects the total mass of the wheel (assuming similar cross-section of rims/tires). No matter what size the wheel is, the point at the top is going twice the speed of the bicycle, and the point at the bottom is stationary. The energy advantage of the small wheel is that there's a lot less of it. Two wheel with the same mass should be roughly equivalent regardless of their size, in terms of the difference in energy required to accelerate the bike. Of course, in many cases, the smaller the wheel gets, the fatter and heavier the tire tends to get to provide a reasonably soft ride. Alex Moulton designed his bikes to have small wheels with narrow, high-pressure tires, and put the shock absorption in a suspension system instead of in the tires.<br /><br /><i>Has anyone tried to spin a wheel off the ground? With a flick of the wrist, holding a single pedal, you can bring it to a million miles an hour...</i><br /><br />You must have much stronger wrists than I do. Anyway, pay attention to the gear you've got it in, and how fast the cranks are turning, rather than looking at the blur of the wheel spinning. I suspect that you haven't really got it going all that fast. Spin it even faster, and see how much difference that seems to make in your impression of how fast the wheel is spinning. Also consider this: the energy it takes to accelerate an object from 15mph to 20mph is 35 times as much as the energy it takes to get the same object from 0 to 5mph. These things are notoriously difficult for humans to estimate.Merlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13350335129704993638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-66550754083212004642011-03-01T00:13:18.866-05:002011-03-01T00:13:18.866-05:00Spindizzy:
Warren, I think the tendency for small...Spindizzy:<br /><br /><i>Warren, I think the tendency for small wheel bikes to want to pitch you off when you brake too hard is due to other things, like the center of gravity being so far above the axle(the fulcrum you pivot over on your way to that face-plant), the fact that these bikes tend to have such short wheelbases that place your weight that much closer to that front axle and other factors.</i><br /><br />Not quite... Your analysis requires a reference frame that accelerates (the front axle moves at different rates over time in your gedankenexperiment). There isn't really any pivot point for the over-the-bars maneuver; the rider's center of mass describes an oval shape, not a circle. The only external forces acting on the bike/rider system are gravity and static friction between the road surface and the tire, so at any point in time there is a effective pivot point, but that point is not at the front axle -- it's where the tire contacts the road. The small wheel does make it easier to go over the bars, but that's because it doesn't cause the rider to go up as high as the large wheel, decreasing the amount of energy required. It's also likely that the contact point of the small wheel is closer to the rider on the small-wheeled bike.<br /><br /><i>The short distance between the axle and the brake shoes actually increases your body weights mechanical advantage to resist the forces that try to lever you off the bike. If you want to experience the opposite effect, ride a Penny-Farthing a little. The ability for the long lever created between the axle and the pathetically feeble spoon brake is more than the enough to overcome the little leverage your body has at it's disposal to resist it's diabolical plan to leave a negative impression of your face in the dirt.</i><br /><br />I'm afraid I don't follow here. Both the small-wheeler and the penny-farthing should make it easier to go over the bars than the "standard" bike. On the penny-farthing, the rider is up high, and quite far forward, minimizing the energy required to get him high enough to go over, and maximizing the effectiveness of the frictional force at the bottom of the wheel for doing so. On the small-wheeled bike, it's less extreme, but the reasons are the same, and it's all about geometry. Or are you just referring to the fact that the rim brakes are weaker the smaller the wheel gets?Merlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13350335129704993638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-51617160254637512742011-02-28T23:08:34.962-05:002011-02-28T23:08:34.962-05:00I owned a '73 Raleigh Moulton. It was fun and ...I owned a '73 Raleigh Moulton. It was fun and it was fast and mostly it was practical. The big insurmountable problem was that riding on bad roads - Chicago - there were bumps and potholes that simply defeated the suspension. When you slam that little wheel into the far side of a pothole the small radius tire makes a sharper angle of contact than would a big tire. Result was starburst failure in the tire casing. Over and over. The small tires are real easy to change, but it gets old fast buying tires and needing to carry both tire and tube on every ride.<br />Wouldn't be so big a problem if you simply rode slow. Or if you lived in wonderland with paved roads.<br />A fun bike, glad I tried it, promising but flawed. <br /><br />One other thing: You have to keep your weight back. You can set it up so pitching over the front wheel is no more an issue than on a standard bike. You can also set it up carelessly so that pitching is an ever present danger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-82160668607974305232011-02-28T19:38:37.566-05:002011-02-28T19:38:37.566-05:00The nubby little cylinder at the top end of the br...The nubby little cylinder at the top end of the brake noodle (see picture 7) is there to do exactly what Spindizzy described: add compressibility to the cable housing in order to increase modulation by requiring a greater length of cable to be pulled in order to reach maximum clamping force. The drawback of this device (it's just a spring that gets compressed between the brake housing and the noodle) is that it reduces the already small amount of clearance between brake pad and rim.<br /><br />Also, suspension is there to aid in stability, not detract from it. Sipelgas, however, highlights a notable deficiency in many suspension designs: brake dive. It seems a shame that the space frame Moulton's leading link fork doesn't eliminate this issue; perhaps the application of a drum brake anchored to the linkage would solve the issue. Just an armchair speculation.M. Pewthersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-87780653498776618372011-02-28T18:55:29.731-05:002011-02-28T18:55:29.731-05:00My wife and I have been riding AM7 spaceframe Moul...My wife and I have been riding AM7 spaceframe Moultons built in 1985 for the past 15 years. I also commute on a 1965 Moulton Standard. These are absolutely wonderful bicycles. They carry luggage with integrated racks, they can go as fast as we need, they're nimble and smooth. They can accommodate riders from 5'2" to 6'7", men or women. Moultons can be modified and customized to meet any rider's needs. The suspension on our 25 year old bikes work wonderfully. I'd suggest that before jumping to conclusions based upon extremely limited exposure, folks spend some time with these wonderful machines. They are an absolute joy to own and ride. Aaron Shapiro, Portland, MaineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89283674148970884932011-02-28T18:20:19.145-05:002011-02-28T18:20:19.145-05:00sipelgas said...
"...I think modern tires lik...<i>sipelgas said...<br />"...I think modern tires like the Hetres gives the same [suspension] comfort without the disadvantages. "</i><br /><br />I agree. There are a few tires, such as Grand Bois Hetres, Schwalbe Fat Franks, and even the narrower Schwalbe Delta Cruisers that are great at swallowing road shock.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-24392198938410724122011-02-28T17:12:26.599-05:002011-02-28T17:12:26.599-05:00johni said...
"Here is a Moulton you may like...<i>johni said...<br />"Here is a Moulton you may like:<br />http://www.jitensha.com/eng/moulton_e.html<br />It is based on the original F-frame<br />concept but with modern components."</i><br /><br />Hmm... I prefer the vintage f-frame. The new Bridgestone version has aluminum tubing with a unicrown fork and bent chainstays for starters, and there must be other subtle differences as well that are making me like it less.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32328795793079113452011-02-28T16:33:10.227-05:002011-02-28T16:33:10.227-05:00One month in and I am growing very fond of my Cann...One month in and I am growing very fond of my Cannondale Hooligan 8. It doesn't fold and I certainly do not want or need it to: I only have a 2.1 mile commute on fairly benign public roadways and it navigates the hallways and fits in my office. People ask me about it.<br /><br />We go huge grocery shopping every three months and use a Ford Explorer to do that. We grow vegetables and I'm building a greenhouse on our lot. We use all different kinds of bikes to do fill-in shopping, but we're not perfect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-65602338712596047992011-02-28T15:56:43.388-05:002011-02-28T15:56:43.388-05:00Velouria,
Here is a Moulton you may like:
http:/...Velouria,<br /><br />Here is a Moulton you may like:<br /><br />http://www.jitensha.com/eng/moulton_e.html<br /><br />It is based on the original F-frame<br />concept but with modern components.<br /><br />I personally prefer the ride of this<br />bike compared to the spaceframe Moultons.<br /><br />John Ijohnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08034164289196863355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-46940583000960427402011-02-28T15:37:06.579-05:002011-02-28T15:37:06.579-05:00I have owned a vintage F-frame
Moulton, the same m...I have owned a vintage F-frame<br />Moulton, the same model as the blue one<br />described here. I liked it<br />but could not see any real advantage<br />for me, especially as they do not fold.<br /><br />But here is a bike I do like:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdy_(bicycle)<br /><br />It may not look to everyones taste,<br />but they are comfortable to ride all<br />day long (my wife and I have completed<br />three 4-month-long camping tours<br />carrying four panniers each in Europe<br />and Africa)<br />and they fold as quickly as a Brompton<br />(but not quite as small).<br /><br />Like every bike there are tradeoffs.<br />They do not ride as well out of<br />the saddle as I would like, they<br />are not as stable on fast downhills<br />either, but you can take them on<br />any bus, which widens our cycling<br />horizons without the need for a car.<br /><br />We just got back to the UK<br />from a weekend cycling<br />in Belgium with them :)<br /><br />John Ijohnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08034164289196863355noreply@blogger.com