tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post4952848844786840414..comments2024-03-27T05:14:23.738-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Lugged Non-Steel?Velouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-90494488107463011422014-11-29T14:15:24.281-05:002014-11-29T14:15:24.281-05:00Would like to see ready made lugs for composite tu...Would like to see ready made lugs for composite tubing for the hobbyist. Made some epoxy-glass on alumium and wood bikes in the 70s. Lugs eliminate the jigging and sandwich mold joining. Good carbon tubes can be bought online now. Potential weight saving on recumbant is quite large.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-25841765261534963732010-11-03T03:24:42.280-04:002010-11-03T03:24:42.280-04:00Robert - thank you : ) Clicked on your blog and I...Robert - thank you : ) Clicked on your blog and I love that Raleigh advert with the girls in short-shorts going for the apples. I think one of them has the exact same saddle shoes as I do!Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-19607340797250508532010-11-03T03:21:06.023-04:002010-11-03T03:21:06.023-04:00MDI - Although I use the "once you add stuff ...MDI - Although I use the "once you add stuff to the bike, the weight of the frame does not matter" argument myself, I think that it only applies to commuter and touring bikes. When it comes to roadbikes and racing bikes, the weight of the frame does matter - simply because it makes up a greater proportion of the bicycle's overall weight. Also, racing components tend to be lighter than touring and commuter components, exaggerating this difference even further. Even my vintage fixed gear roadbike benefits a great deal from the light weight of its Columbus frame, because it has so few components on it. If the frame was hi-ten, I'd feel the difference.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-90955749939971510322010-11-03T03:17:53.647-04:002010-11-03T03:17:53.647-04:00The wooden porteur from Dapper Cycles just knocked...The wooden porteur from Dapper Cycles just knocked me out! I've been daydreaming about such a thing for years now, but I have none of the requisite skills for making one. And now you show me that such a thing exists! I'm doomed to lust after it from afar, unless Dapper Cycles is able to bring them to market...and I somehow manage to afford one. Maybe by then the exotic bike-to-spare kidney exchange rate will improve.<br /><br />By the way, I wanted to say how much I've been enjoying Lovely Bike for the past 6 months or so that I've been aware of it. For my money, it's the single best bike blog out there. Indeed, it inspired me to start my own!<br /><br />-- Robert<br />(<a href="http://dandycycle.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Dandy Cycle: an appreciation of the proper gentleman's bicycle</a>)Roberthttp://dandycycle.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-51014191926627794132010-11-03T02:33:20.999-04:002010-11-03T02:33:20.999-04:00This post inspired me to look at these space-age b...This post inspired me to look at these space-age bikes and Seven's web site. Cool. Seven has Ti frames in the ~3 lbs range. They even have a steel frame that's around 3.6 lbs. I mean, how important is it to save 1-1.5 lb on frame weight? Do you end up with a bike that's 15-16 lbs instead of 17 lbs if you use light-weight-everything components? Do you then only use a water bottle that's half-full?<br /><br />I sound like a "reverse-weight-weenie" for sure, but with everything else on the bike amounting to the majority of the weight, saving 1 lb in the frame itself at the potential cost of it cracking in half seems absurd for those of us who cycle for pleasure or compete at amateur levels. If your races appear on TV and someone buys a new bike every time you climb on it (or fall off of it), I suppose it makes sense to ride a 16-lbs-single-purpose-bike since you're going to be judged on fractions of a second to the finish line.<br /><br />It also makes sense if you collect racing bikes or just want to own expensive/exclusive bikes for pleasure reasons. I suppose it _also_ makes sense if the only way you can get yourself to cycle is by riding one of these bikes, otherwise you feel bored. The common theme here is doing what you like, not what "makes sense." That's fine.<br /><br />But for actual cyclists who aren't driven to the start line in a team car, these materials don't make a whole lot of sense IMO. Though, it's good to know that these bikes can be made to look beautiful.<br /><br />I really enjoyed seeing this post. :)MDIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10810401918223629618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-70921435501141030222010-11-03T02:07:09.939-04:002010-11-03T02:07:09.939-04:00Functional bikes are torsionally stiff, art bikes ...Functional bikes are torsionally stiff, art bikes don't have to be. Some materials, like wood and bamboo, and aluminum, for that matter, are not torsionally stiff, which the first alum bike makers discovered when they merely copied the tube diameters of steel, which is much stiffer. Both Cannondale and Renovo solve the problem the only sensible way, they make their tubes large enough to achieve the stiffness they want, and of course Renovo avoids the whole lug problem by using wood-to-wood joinery of the highest caliber and strength. The small diameters necessitated by steel tubing-sized lugs, aren't even close to large enough to provide a torsionally stiff frame using wood or bamboo. But if style outweighs function for you, they do look very cool.<br /><br />Regarding carbon frames, carbon isn't the problem at all, it's the weight weenies needing to ride a bike like Lance's. You can have an extremely durable carbon frame, but it has to weigh more than 2.2 pounds. Next time you're in the LBS, flex the downtube walls of a Cervelo or similar, they're paper thin. But that's what carbon does better than the other materials; it's extremely torsionally stiff because the fibers can be precisely oriented to the load paths, and since the tensile strength of carbon is so much higher than the other materials, less material is need for stiffness, so you get a 2.2 pound frame that's stiff as hell. It just breaks easily because there's not much material there.Kensternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-5925134130600966262010-11-03T01:18:20.890-04:002010-11-03T01:18:20.890-04:00Anon 12:39 - Oh yes, I know. This whole website is...Anon 12:39 - Oh yes, I know. This whole website is mostly an ode to lugged steel. But sometimes alternative methods of construction are interesting - especially if they incorporate some degree of craftsmanship and uniqueness. One of the several things I dislike about CF is that it looks "dead" to me, just very cold and clinical. But when I saw the IF lugged Corvid at a local bike shop, it looked alive and vibrant; it looked human. So that is what interests me about the bicycles I have showcased in this post - both the CF and the wooden ones.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-53962188214000277562010-11-03T00:39:18.643-04:002010-11-03T00:39:18.643-04:00Carbon fibre is notorious for failure. check out ...Carbon fibre is notorious for failure. check out www.bustedcarbon.com for a laugh or not a laugh if it's you riding the bike!<br />Carbon fibre freaks me out.<br />And it's one of those things, striving to be better than what was already great and perfect.<br />Bamboo is interesting as it is strong, but would it hold together as a bicycle? my husband wants one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-43772896264433855072010-11-02T21:57:40.340-04:002010-11-02T21:57:40.340-04:00With the exception of the Bruce Gordon bike, all o...With the exception of the Bruce Gordon bike, all of the steel or Ti lugs are significantly longer than those used in steel/steel construction which provides a greater bonded area and shortens the carbon "lever" that would cause weakening at the end of the lug. Also, the stiffness and especially the durability of CF tubing are significantly greater than in the days of the Trek 2300 and similar bikes. Stems, handlebars, and cranks are being made of the stuff for pro-cycling's strongest sprinters as well as for abusive DH riders.<br /><br />Worries of catastrophic failure, while not invalid, are not as relevant as back when Grant Petersen staged a steel vs. carbon sword (fork) fight. Of course, the stuff still breaks (check out bustedcarbon.com), but I've broken 2 crank arms, 3 handlebars, a stem, one frame, and 2 forks, but none were CF. All were aluminum except the frame and forks, which were steel. Everything breaks (though you will likely be pleased to know that 2/3 of the steel breakages propagated slowly enough for me to notice during routine maintenance, whereas all of the aluminum failed rapidly).Matt Pewthersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-23679766423012827312010-11-02T21:20:48.252-04:002010-11-02T21:20:48.252-04:00Fiber reinforced plastics are great things, but us...Fiber reinforced plastics are great things, but using tubes and lugs with these kind of materials makes me scratch my head.<br /><br />Why are the stresses not being engineered to be spread along longer distances, to take advantage of the tensile strengths of these fibers?<br /><br />Carbon, especially, has very little advantage when used in such modulus intensive shapes - it performs best in long sheets, like airplane wings.<br /><br />It's often paired with Kevlar to improve it's "flex" - as carbon will "snap" like a window pane when bent.<br /><br />Why doesn't a someone make a bike that's a skinned triangle with rigidized verticies? <br /><br />A lightweight injected foam could give the form enough impact resistance.<br /><br />Lugs only compute where steel meets steel, in my opinion.NorthernMikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-12830678718345399162010-11-02T21:16:27.568-04:002010-11-02T21:16:27.568-04:00Kenster- Perhaps the inside of the lugs are threa...Kenster- Perhaps the inside of the lugs are threaded? Again, just speculation, but I would think that threading the inside of the lugs as well as the wood, when combined with a strong epoxy, would prevent much damage from expansion or contraction.Finleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-14837059555704552902010-11-02T20:51:09.366-04:002010-11-02T20:51:09.366-04:00"That is what I was thinking. What if anythin..."That is what I was thinking. What if anything are the framebuilders doing to overcome these issues?"<br />Thing is, the expansion/contraction can be slowed, but not stopped, at least not by acceptable coatings, so maybe the builders can just say their frames have a limited life and be done with it, but then how can they prevent catastrophic failure at some point? Just through-bolt the connection, which is what was done in the 1890's with lugged frames of wood and bamboo... but then you get a noodly bike when the joint loosens.<br /><br />For the stress concentration problem at the joint, Calfee started using hemp fiber instead of carbon, which seeems to work, but the matrix has to approximate the flexibility of bamboo, which is not at all stiff. So once again you have a noodly bike. But that may be ok for some folks.Kensternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-76972112464835746502010-11-02T20:15:48.312-04:002010-11-02T20:15:48.312-04:00JP Twins - Thanks for the link to Bruce Gordon, I ...JP Twins - Thanks for the link to Bruce Gordon, I have included a picture of his work. Oh, and I need to start subscribing to Bicycle Quarterly. I just think if I do it'll really be the end of any pretense of sanity on my part : )<br /><br />Anon 7:56 - He would not indeed! I don't even think he approves of titanium tubing.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-15238200928975152842010-11-02T20:01:01.859-04:002010-11-02T20:01:01.859-04:00Ok, the picture of the lugged faceted wood frame b...Ok, the picture of the lugged faceted wood frame by Sylvan Cycles looks to me like it should have a #2 printed on it. Maybe it's just the way it's lit. Those lugs on the carbon fiber frame in the 2nd photo just rock my socks. They look like they're melting and blowing back in the wind.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08236210810344032312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-45567579062261924552010-11-02T19:56:03.384-04:002010-11-02T19:56:03.384-04:00The father of your Sam Hillborne would NOT approve...The father of your Sam Hillborne would NOT approve of these construction materials :).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-77759500348553750062010-11-02T17:57:27.961-04:002010-11-02T17:57:27.961-04:00Kenster- I would guess that they would use some so...Kenster- I would guess that they would use some sort of process to make sure that the material was shrunk as much as possible when it was assembled, and even then assembled with as tight a fit as possible. That way, expansion would just make it tighter, and reshrinkage wouldn't be an issue. Again, this is just a guess.Finleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-81564082029470838942010-11-02T17:31:17.691-04:002010-11-02T17:31:17.691-04:00Think of lugs as permitting a wide range of custom...Think of lugs as permitting a wide range of custom fits, versus the numerous layup schedules of a monocoque frame. <br /><br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-59745984008203674232010-11-02T14:55:41.997-04:002010-11-02T14:55:41.997-04:00Kenster said..."...Bad engineering to use a s...<i>Kenster said...<br>"...Bad engineering to use a stiff lug (steel,carbon) to join less stiff materials like wood or bamboo. <b>The tubes will fail at the intersection of joint and tube</b> due to concentration of repeated bending loads there.<br>...Wood/bamboo <b>shrinks and expands</b> with moisture change, it can't be prevented with conventional finishes."</i><br><br>That is what I was thinking. What if anything are the framebuilders doing to overcome these issues?Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-61191183125093518462010-11-02T14:42:02.741-04:002010-11-02T14:42:02.741-04:00"Lugged construction for wood or bamboo-tubed..."Lugged construction for wood or bamboo-tubed bikes is the best way to go; metal lugs are stronger than wood and allow a good way to attach different wood tubes together"<br /><br />Um, not so much for at least two reasons. <br />1. Bad engineering to use a stiff lug (steel,carbon) to join less stiff materials like wood or bamboo. The tubes will fail at the intersection of joint and tube due to concentration of repeated bending loads there.<br />Calfee, who restarted the bamboo thing, found that out with his bamboo frames and quit making carbon lugged bamboo frames.<br />2. Wood/bamboo shrinks and expands with moisture change, it can't be prevented with conventional finishes. The expansion in a rigid connector will exceed the proportional limit of the expanding material, then when it shrinks back, it will be smaller. As that cycle repeats, the joint will become loose, which on a bike frame isn't ideal.Kensternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-78662886263323982632010-11-02T13:55:54.726-04:002010-11-02T13:55:54.726-04:00cycler - I remember that frame at Open; wish I had...cycler - I remember that frame at Open; wish I had taken some pictures.<br /><br />Andy Mangold - of course, the wooden Porteur! I've included it; that is a stunning bicycle.<br /><br />I would probably not ride a carbon fiber bike myself for a number of reasons, unless in some fantastic scenario I became a bicycle racer and was required to ride a CF bike. But the construction still interests me, especially if it looks aesthetically appealing and labor intensive.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-32721222510195926912010-11-02T12:31:40.267-04:002010-11-02T12:31:40.267-04:00I ride an old carbon Look with skinny carbon tubes...I ride an old carbon Look with skinny carbon tubes glued into aluminum (I think) lugs. I believe this method allows them to use one set of lugs and make different frame sizes by simply choosing longer or shorter tubes as opposed to the more modern styles that require a different mold for each size frame.<br />Kinda funny that my carbon bike is lugged, but my steel bikes aren't!Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-76179941610378602302010-11-02T11:13:06.811-04:002010-11-02T11:13:06.811-04:00Renovo makes all-wood frames. Some of them are bre...<a href="http://www.renovobikes.com/" rel="nofollow">Renovo</a> makes all-wood frames. Some of them are breathtakingly beautiful. Materials include, but are not limited to, bamboo, and according to Renovo some of these bikes rival aluminum and/or titanium in weight. Also, not cheap. I have no personal experience with them but I love the concept.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08144929561213653406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-64379434179890747842010-11-02T10:31:04.008-04:002010-11-02T10:31:04.008-04:00Lugged carbon fiber doesn't make a whole lot o...Lugged carbon fiber doesn't make a whole lot of sense, now that carbon fiber frames can be made in one piece. The "monocoque" (or "unibody") carbon frames are stronger and lighter than the older lugged frames, and allow manufacturers more options in shape and aerodynamics.<br /><br />Lugged construction for wood or bamboo-tubed bikes is the best way to go; metal lugs are stronger than wood and allow a good way to attach different wood tubes together. However, I would worry about the durability of wood or bamboo over the long-term. You wouldn't leave a wood bike outdoors all year round.Joseph Enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-61829637420611573652010-11-02T10:06:00.583-04:002010-11-02T10:06:00.583-04:00There was a gorgeous carbon and polished SS lugged...There was a gorgeous carbon and polished SS lugged frame at Open bikes when we had that BRW meeting there. I've been sad ever since that I didn't check into the cost and the geometry of it to see if it was something that I could justify bringing home with me.cyclerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10331461189944538729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-23424545535945433042010-11-02T09:09:09.247-04:002010-11-02T09:09:09.247-04:00Velouria, thank you for including my wood bike in ...Velouria, thank you for including my wood bike in this post :)<br />My bikes lugs were made of steel and then copper plated. I used the same glue/epoxy that IF uses for their Ti/Carbon bike.<br />As already pointed out,the lugged/glued method has been in use for a very long time [Exxon Grafite and Vitus frames]. The biggest issue was the glue getting old and letting loose. New epoxy glue has improved this very much, but only time will tell if they really work.<br />The wood bike I made was really unrideable. I did ride it myself and then sold it to a collector as an art piece.<br />The new wood and bambo bikes are are very usable, but I have never ridden one.<br />I consider all of these bikes to be lugged or any bikes that has these pipe fitting designs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com