tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post3211720415203911649..comments2024-03-27T05:14:23.738-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Long Top Tubes and Drop BarsVelouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger131125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-72506822179091727372011-12-18T03:22:27.192-05:002011-12-18T03:22:27.192-05:00For anyone still reading these comments, we've...For anyone still reading these comments, we've now gotten a zero-setback seatpost to experiment with and I have an <a href="http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/12/on-seatpost-setback-and-related-matters.html" rel="nofollow">update here</a>.<br /><br />Re the topic of the slack ST angle shortening the effective TT length... After getting pretty confused over some of the descriptive terminology and diagrams posted here, I've finally come to realise that it is no different from how I already understand the topic. In saying that a slack ST angle will decrease the effective TT length, you are assuming that the saddle position will be the same in relation to the BB as on a bike with a standard (non-slack) ST angle, which means you have to be assuming that the cyclist will be using a zero-setback seatpost and shoving their saddle forward. However, Rivendell does not advocate this to be done with their frames and if anything promotes seatposts with setback - which completely contradicts the slack ST/ shorter effective TT logic. So... I feel as if I've come full circle here. <br /><br />Re the statement that the bike is really a compact 56cm frame, and therefore the TT is not too long: Again, I would agree if Rivendell presented the bike that way. They do not. Not only do they describe it as a 52cm frame, but they recommend this frame size to a person with my PBH, while at the same time suggesting that the frame can be set up as a roadbike (i.e. dropbars, reasonable length stem, bars at saddle height). Had the frame been described as a 56cm frame, I would of course not have gotten this size.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-43649562391630711532011-12-16T15:42:47.379-05:002011-12-16T15:42:47.379-05:00Sloping top tubes folks... Don't apply your &q...Sloping top tubes folks... Don't apply your "square" st/tt standards to any bike with compact or expanded geometry. A 52 frame with 6 degree upslope fits like a 56 or 57 standover and bar height wise, so a 57cm tt is totally in the normal, traditional, has-worked-for-a-century ballpark. Actually just about square. New riders always think reach to the drops is too far.Gentlemansbikehttp://bikegentle.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-4048072597475442962011-12-15T10:47:23.141-05:002011-12-15T10:47:23.141-05:00Our thinking is that the saddle is too far back cu...Our thinking is that the saddle is too far back currently due to a slacker tube.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-31814692453510964102011-12-14T20:49:53.061-05:002011-12-14T20:49:53.061-05:00Changing the seatpost and saddle position isn'...Changing the seatpost and saddle position isn't gonna be the solution. I mean, if your saddle position relative to the pedals is proper and the bike is too big, it just means the bike is too big. If you want a bike with drop bars you're gonna need something with a shorter TT. Why not look for a Surly Pacer or a Salsa Casseroll. Or, if you can afford it, since you like a rando-esque bike,why not get a frame through Boulder Bicycles?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-56747703652039503622011-12-14T11:04:39.145-05:002011-12-14T11:04:39.145-05:00^^ cool. hope it works!^^ cool. hope it works!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-26762829365559329012011-12-13T21:50:21.528-05:002011-12-13T21:50:21.528-05:00Spendy. Origin 8 knock-off is $30 with delivery.Spendy. Origin 8 knock-off is $30 with delivery.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-58806838763656445762011-12-13T18:50:20.771-05:002011-12-13T18:50:20.771-05:00Hmm...I see a Thomson in your future :)Hmm...I see a Thomson in your future :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-6327318058519340722011-12-13T06:52:49.261-05:002011-12-13T06:52:49.261-05:00Some have mentioned Albatross bars... Yes it's...Some have mentioned Albatross bars... Yes it's a lovely idea and I realise that I can turn the Sam into an upright bike and make the issue go away. But that would completely change the character of the bicycle. It would give me a very cool bike ...that I absolutely don't need. And I would still want a bike with drop bars and wide tires. <br /><br />For now I've ordered a different seat post and will see what that does...Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-82014032285804001682011-12-12T23:05:24.171-05:002011-12-12T23:05:24.171-05:00Get a longer stem and put some Albatross bars on i...Get a longer stem and put some Albatross bars on it. Make it a rambler. <br /><br />I have a PBH of 91cm in bare feet, a SH of 80cm and ride a 63cm Hilsen (60.5TT) with a 10cm stem and the bars level with my saddle. I'm actually only 5'11.5". This combo has worked well for me for tours, rambling and multiple brevet series. When I had a custom rando bike built I went with a 60cm TT and a 64cm ST (CtoT). Years ago I was fitted for a bike and was told I ride a 59x59. That was fine for a pseudo racer kinda fit but not very comfortable. I'm much happier with my current fit. <br /><br />I'm tellin ya, get the A-bars on there and ramble away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89417187670201927682011-12-11T12:48:22.522-05:002011-12-11T12:48:22.522-05:00Learn your size, which takes time and sometimes tr...Learn your size, which takes time and sometimes trial and error. For road, I'm 58x58. For touring, I like bigger. For most else, it really doesn't matter. All bikes can be fun, like the old Raleigh Sports that would confound contemporary "fit" experts. I'd never get a fitting unless I had some kind of persistent injury. Experimentation and miles will tell you your size. I like different fit for different purposes.<br /><br />This said, your SH is too big for how you'd like to ride it. With the compact/expanded geometry, the old PBH doesn't work the same, which anyone can kind of tell by looking at the upslope tt and the 4 sizes. Go down a size. Trade someone down. Or throw some upright bars on yours and enjoy.Protoriohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076912066157770087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-37892145899853617882011-12-11T09:14:14.574-05:002011-12-11T09:14:14.574-05:00Do you think this overly stretched out position co...Do you think this overly stretched out position contributed to the back end 'kicking out' when you were riding/braking with panniers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-48608893321972082232011-12-10T21:55:43.158-05:002011-12-10T21:55:43.158-05:00Your "oversquare" measurements got me to...Your "oversquare" measurements got me to measure our bikes. I'm 5'11" & ride a 58 cm Atlantis (700c wheels) that has a 56 cm TT. My wife's 47 cm Atlantis (26" wheels) has a 50 cm TT. She's 5'2", has a 7 cm stem and is comfortable. For your bike to have a TT similar in length to a 58 seems odd. Perhaps some change in design philosophy over the years? Both our h'bars are roughly saddle height. <br /><br />dougPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-9086207525947587222011-12-10T18:58:32.475-05:002011-12-10T18:58:32.475-05:00Daniel - My bars *are at saddle height; the pictur...Daniel - My bars *are at saddle height; the picture is tilted I guess. I use both the hoods and the drops, no problems. Once again I disagree that I have the bike set up other as intended. Rivendell does not say that you cannot set the bars up at saddle level, and plenty of owner photos show bikes set up much, much more aggressively than mine. I am not trying to do anything weird here, really.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-78041670292521401512011-12-10T18:45:03.229-05:002011-12-10T18:45:03.229-05:00Going to wade into it here.
Velouria, do you use...Going to wade into it here. <br /><br />Velouria, do you use the drops much or do you primarily ride on the hoods? I have a 56cm Hillborne with the Noodle Handlebars and I chose the DirtDrop stem because I knew I wanted the bars high and close compared to the floor model I test rode. It looks a bit goofy, but the revelation for me has been that the drops are suddenly useable for extended periods of time, a first for me with a road bike. Every time I lower the bars, I end up using the drops less, which seems like a waste. With the stem at maximum extension, the seat level pretty much splits the difference between the hoods/flats and the drops, so that the former are slightly above and the latter slightly below seat level. The appearance may not be lovely, but the riding experience certainly is.<br /><br />Since you already have more speed-oriented roadbikes, might you consider raising your bars back to at least seat height? Because of the angle of the head tube, they will get closer at the same time. This would seem to me to be an appropriate fitting difference for a bike with a different intended use from those other bikes, i.e. longer rides and/or cargo. So much of the design of the bike is about getting the bars at or above seat level, that to put them below seems like you're going against the intended purpose of the design, especially if it is causing you other problems.Daniel Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-37790053426689795052011-12-10T17:58:43.409-05:002011-12-10T17:58:43.409-05:00It's not a 58. It's a 54 C-C with assumed ...It's not a 58. It's a 54 C-C with assumed level TT. A 54 by 57.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-84997029781934093542011-12-10T17:02:02.652-05:002011-12-10T17:02:02.652-05:00MDI and Anon - Right. Either way, it is not really...MDI and Anon - Right. Either way, it is not really a 52cm bike and this is not apparent to a roadbike novice when reading descriptions and going by sizing guidelines or even speaking to Riv staff.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-64840584655942970112011-12-10T16:43:48.443-05:002011-12-10T16:43:48.443-05:00The sam is more like a 58 if you want to call it n...The sam is more like a 58 if you want to call it normal(level tt) and 58 x 57.5 is very normal. one degree of angle on a 57.5cm line rises very close to 1cm try it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-75161858965301533522011-12-10T14:24:55.962-05:002011-12-10T14:24:55.962-05:00So to end all speculation, imagining that SH is a ...So to end all speculation, imagining that SH is a "normal" bike, the virtual top tube is 57cm C-C and virtual seat tube is 54cm C-C.<br /><br />54 by 57 is a bit long, even with the slack angle of 71.5 (not measured). I suppose 72 is typical for a touring geometry.<br /><br />The top tube is long, no question about it. Perhaps too long for this size.MDInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-63949449714957238312011-12-10T14:02:57.505-05:002011-12-10T14:02:57.505-05:00islaysteve - I'm sure the Rivendell guys have ...islaysteve - I'm sure the Rivendell guys have read this post as well, though perhaps not all 100 comments : ) plus Rivendell is a sponsor. I am a fan of the brand, am proud to be sponsored by them, and have spent many many happy miles on my Sam Hillborne. None of this changes the fact that I am now wondering what is up with the sizing. Thanks for the info on the 51cm Bleriot.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-60138395680977293042011-12-10T13:03:02.631-05:002011-12-10T13:03:02.631-05:00Regarding your comments to Anon 8:56; yes, you sor...Regarding your comments to Anon 8:56; yes, you sort of think twice about comments on the RBW Owner's Bunch when you know that Grant reads it. Not that he's mean or anything, he's not. I've made no secret that I don't care for the graphics on my Bleriot, but there are other views that I keep to myself. My Bleriot is a 51, the size I ride in other frames. It's a great-riding bike which I consider to be just about perfect for me. It has a bare minimum of TCO when fitted with 38 Pari-Motos and no fenders. So with fenders, it would have some. Steveislaystevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07088493132905850405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89547132755019088832011-12-10T09:12:53.019-05:002011-12-10T09:12:53.019-05:00Anon 8:56 - I would say that most owners of most n...Anon 8:56 - I would say that most owners of most nice bikes I've spoken to have at least some minor complaints. Sometimes major complaints. These issues are often not discussed publicly, because of notions about loyalty to the framebuilder/brand.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-70263787147647497562011-12-10T09:04:11.226-05:002011-12-10T09:04:11.226-05:00jimmythefly said...
"I made this drawing...&q...<i>jimmythefly said...<br />"I made this drawing..."</i><br /><br />Thank you : )) I need to look over this carefully and think about it...<br /><br />Regarding the question of whether the top tube is in fact too long or not given the slack seat tube: I think it's worthwhile remembering that this is not an academic discussion but a concrete situation. I have the bike. And it feels too long with bars at saddle level and a 7cm stem. <br /><br />I have another bike that is 52cmx54cm, 73 deg ST, 9cm stem, same drop bars just below the saddle, and it does not feel too long. I have another bike that is 52cmx53cm, 74 deg ST, 11cm stem, same drop bars 2cm below the saddle, and it does not feel too long. But the Rivendell does. <br /><br />You can see in the picture at the top of this post how the bike is currently set up - nothing crazy or racy, bars at saddle height. Stem still on the short side. And yet too long. So... reality wins over charts here IMO. As much as it brings me comfort to know that my 57.5cm top tube should feel more like a 55cm top tube, my body still doesn't quite feel right...Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-47497150384409639192011-12-10T08:56:08.222-05:002011-12-10T08:56:08.222-05:00Nothing to add here, but wanted to say I am impres...Nothing to add here, but wanted to say I am impressed and grateful that with over 100 comments this discussion has remained so civil. A pleasure to read and lots of food for thought here. This kind of honest dialog without "bashing" either point of view is crucial but rarely happens. <br /><br />As a happy owner of 3 Rivendell bikes, I still have my complaints about the individual bikes and about the general direction Grant is taking these days. It is not as black and white as some forums would have us imagine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-26659401048134559302011-12-10T08:23:06.196-05:002011-12-10T08:23:06.196-05:00cyclotourist said...
"Right now on ebay is a ...<i>cyclotourist said...<br />"Right now on ebay is a a XXS Gunnar Sport ...Built around 650C wheels, which limit you to skinny tires, but if you're ok with that, there's nothing wrong with them."</i><br /><br />Don't care much for Gunnar. Also pretty sure that bike is too small for me - I normally ride 52cm frames with standard length top tubes. <br /><br />But moreover, I am not looking for another bike with skinny tires. I love the 650Bx42mm tires on my Rivendell and ideally want to keep that feature. Something like a Rawland could work for me, but I wish it were lugged!Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-65097521643604136772011-12-10T08:16:16.281-05:002011-12-10T08:16:16.281-05:00Matthew - Increasingly, I think the Betty Foy is p...Matthew - Increasingly, I think the Betty Foy is perfect as a commuter for those who live in hilly areas and as a light (upright) touring bike. As for the other bikes, it really depends on what one intends to use them for. I'd like to try a Homer in my size. <br /><br />Agreed about the fun. But the bikes are not cheap. A person spending the money probably wants to have a thorough understanding of what the bikes are for and what their limitations are before buying, and of how the sizing works. <br /><br />WMdeR - At least when I was first looking at Rivendell (2009), the Sam Hillborne was not described as having been designed for upright bars. It was described as a versatile bike that could be used, among other things, as a comfortable roadbike. It was described as suitable for club rides. I guess it depends on the club. I have trouble riding mine in groups and keeping up once the hills start. Some have suggested it is overbuilt for someone of my weight (i.e. tubing choice), others have suggested it is the positioning. Probably a bit of both.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.com