tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post2386710173073422441..comments2024-03-27T05:14:23.738-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Bike Fit: A Case of Evolving Preferences?Velouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-24363369644126194322011-04-16T03:06:13.144-04:002011-04-16T03:06:13.144-04:00I wanted to stay out of this because, in more than...I wanted to stay out of this because, in more than three decades of cycling, I think I've heard at least one theory of bike fitting for every slice of pizza consumed by a messenger. And I've heard as much dogma on the subject as messengers have inhaled smog.<br /><br />I think Sophisticated has voiced something very important. Remember to fit your bike to your proportions to the way you--and only you--ride. The fact that some racer one with a particular kind of fit doesn't make it right for you, or the way you ride.<br /><br />I'd say to talk with a few potential fitters and choose the one whose riding style and other personal preferences is closest to yours--or at least the person who seems to understand them best. It's helpful, but not imperative, for the fitter to be shaped something like you.Justine Valinottihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10852069587181432102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-8917645775763410932011-04-15T13:31:42.184-04:002011-04-15T13:31:42.184-04:00Hello Velouria: "For me, points 3 and 5 almos...Hello Velouria: "For me, points 3 and 5 almost always conflict. Normally, I find that I have to push the saddle back at least 1-2cm in order to take the weight off my hands on a bike with drop bars - which slackens the seat tube angle and makes the bike less aggressive."<br /><br />These appear to me to be precisely the main two criteria for determining optimum bike fit. In this respect, I find Kevin's pointers to be quite accurate. Your own problems (re points 3 & 5) suggest you might well be riding with too short an effective reach (TT + stem length). Slightly disagreeing with Bikehermit's suggestions, I would put forward that it is not a matter of telling people how they should ride their bike, or of competitive riding, but rather a matter of finding the optimum efficient pedal stroke for each particular bike type (in this case we are explicitly dealing with a roadbike). <br /><br />When experimenting or playing with overall reach, I would suggest that the stem should almost always be the main variable - and you should generally avoid any movement of the saddle back or forward. People move their saddle because it is so much easier. But that can tend to have a much more negative and significant impact on the pedalling efficiency of the bike. When it comes to my own classic roadbike, I find that pushing my saddle back any further than normal along the natural line of the ST, results in a less than optimum use of my weight during the pedal stroke. While the extended reach is not a significant problem, it does result in an over-tiring of my leg muscles, far more strain on my back and too much upper body movement. For me, a well-sized roadbike should position the saddle forward and closer to the natural line of the ST. If your overall reach (TT + stem length) and other variables are correctly accounted for, then that position should not result in an over-agressive feeling of too much weight on the hands. Rather, it should produce a natural balance between the three contact points. That should in turn produce the feeling of an almost weightless turning of the pedal stroke and a feeling that your balanced body weight is now pushing you forward along the road in a compact position with minimal upper body movement. <br /><br />Again, the same thing goes here for saddle height (which is what I feel Kevin was trying to get at in his first point). Once you have determined your optimum height for a powerful efficient pedal stroke, that should remain the same, independent of other sizing factors. You should not lower your saddle to shorten reach or solve issues concerning balance, etc. <br /><br />When a bike is built with a certain geometry for a certain purpose, it is not the case that all riding positions are equally efficient. Personal comfort is certainly the most important variable, but it should be kept in balance with the intention inscribed in the frame by the builder themselves - a joint project if you will.<br /><br />May the road rise to meet you (and congrats on getting on the interwebs top bike sites list!)<br /><br />E. in IrelandAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-83191091327315992992011-04-15T11:22:16.086-04:002011-04-15T11:22:16.086-04:00You are getting a Rivendell Simple One in that pre...You are getting a Rivendell Simple One in that pretty green, aren't you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-68022799938081788192011-04-14T22:24:57.442-04:002011-04-14T22:24:57.442-04:00Riding bikes with varying fit keeps your body flex...Riding bikes with varying fit keeps your body flexible. And your mind. <br />Back in racing days it would happen that the bike flatted or broke and someone hands you a spare bike. Not your own spare but some spare. Those bikes never fit. Often enough they raced fine. Spend hours and hours obsessing over millimeters of fit, race day comes and you race and race well on something for someone 4 inches shorter. Happens.<br />Someone mentioned Eddy Merckx. After "the" accident, and the displaced hip, Eddy carried hex keys in his jersey pocket. Changed position during races. Sometimes half a degree of saddle tilt, sometimes the saddle up or down 3 cm.<br /><br />If you try to make all your bikes fit the same you will never get there. Change them as often as you wish but ride them and enjoy them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-6506734528980592502011-04-14T10:32:04.027-04:002011-04-14T10:32:04.027-04:00Hey Kevin Saunders
"1) The saddle should be a...Hey Kevin Saunders<br />"1) The saddle should be as high as possible, but not too high, with a stable ankle implied."<br />What does that mean? A too high saddle can cause injury as quick as one that is too low.<br />"2) The saddle should be as nose down as possible without being too low."<br />Depends on the saddle<br />"3) The saddle should be as far forward as possible, allowing glutes and quads to balance the load, the lumbar spine to be stable and the maximum power delivery still possible."<br />Depends on the seat tube angle<br /> <br />"Most modern road bicycles are not capable of this position. Many vintage road bikes are. In performance land, I believe that Eddy Merckx had positioning down perfectly and his ability to win races and recover quickly to do so again was proof."<br />I don't think most people here live in performance land. And if they do, they still are not Eddy Merckx. What is "performance" anyway? What if I want to ride relatively slowly and all day in comfort? That's one definition of performance.Bike Hermithttp://www.biketouringnews.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-16123760913073039362011-04-14T07:24:07.334-04:002011-04-14T07:24:07.334-04:00yoga is a good metaphor here. everytime you go yo...yoga is a good metaphor here. everytime you go your head and body are in a different place. for me, change that to years and that has been my experience with bicycling. every year i get back outside on the bike, my head and body are in a different place. as i age i find this particularly true. what i may have not noticed in my 20's affects me accutely now at 40. though essentially our package stays the same and our bike fit may be constant for years, the human body and mind ARE ever changing, ever evolving and in my belief that affects everything, including our bicycling.my hyggelighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18419682239783674156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-56004221838081933572011-04-13T22:19:17.076-04:002011-04-13T22:19:17.076-04:00In response to proper fitting, I really think ther...In response to proper fitting, I really think there is a huge amount of room for subjective opinion (obviously). Personally, I've found most diamond frame road bikes to feel too big, even though they should technically fit. For some reason there is something psychological about having that top tube in the way that makes me feel like the bike doesn't fit. <br /><br />Although, that said, at 5'4", most road bikes ARE too big for me anyways, so perhaps it's not all in my head. And if the frame fits, the brake lever reach is too long, etc etc. ;)MFarringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00050234723125733522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-27073240252084091942011-04-13T22:02:18.423-04:002011-04-13T22:02:18.423-04:00I think the Moser probably wouldn't suffer if ...I think the Moser probably wouldn't suffer if it spent a few years being an ornament on the wall. I have a bright green 1971 Schwinn Paramount road frame(Reynolds 531, Campy dropouts/forkends and lots of chrome) in my studio that will eventually go back to working for a living, but for now I like to just stare at it once in a while.<br /><br />I understand about wanting to rationalize the fleet but I think there is value to having a "toy" around to just mess with that doesn't have to be particularly useful or sensible. When something interesting lands in ones lap, as things occasionally do, I think it's rude to send them on their way too soon. I don't think you have to provide a home to every stray bike that ends up on your doorstep but, only 2 skinnytire bikes? Really? Just 2? I still have several joists in my basement that don't have bikehooks screwed into them and an empty cupboard under the sink for when I finally find one of those ridiculous tiny bikes with the rollerblade wheels. What do you ride when you want to weave lighterfluid soaked dishrags in the rearspokes and go for a "cometride" ? (don't bother Googleing "cometride", I just made it up. But I really do have just the bike. (and rags and lighterfluid)). <br /><br />SpindizzyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-39930364015867748392011-04-13T20:36:14.459-04:002011-04-13T20:36:14.459-04:00My above post was in regard to
[i]Velouria said....My above post was in regard to <br /><br />[i]Velouria said...<br /><br />Re "proper fittings" - Yes, I've had them. From several different professionals. And guess what? They all took the same measurements and came up with different conclusions... up to 4cm difference in frame size recommendations.[/i]<br /><br />Probably depends upon what sort of ride they "thought" you wanted and/or different variations on them measuring you.The Sophisticated Cyclerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07619481287876849376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-10736277626889835232011-04-13T20:03:41.863-04:002011-04-13T20:03:41.863-04:00All depends on personal preference, whether you...All depends on personal preference, whether you're going for comfort or performance. After time a differently fitted bike feels normal just because you get used to riding that way. While you may be uncomfortable comparatively on one fit when you switch, your performance might be better and vice versa.<br /><br />Check out descriptions of actual fits: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/html/fit/traditions_of_road_riding.html<br /><br />For instance my fit using their very detailed and mathematical calculator with rough measurements:<br /><br />Your Measurements<br />Gender M<br />Inseam 86 cm<br />Trunk 71 cm<br />Forearm 37 cm<br />Arm 61 cm<br />Thigh 63.5 cm<br />Lower Leg 55 cm<br />Sternal Notch 148 cm<br />Total Body Height 182.88 cm<br /><br /><br /><br />The Competitive Fit: 55.7 - 56.2<br />The Eddy Fit: 56.9 - 57.4<br />The French Fit: 58.6 - 59.1<br /> <br />My fits come out to these ranges, so a 56, 57 or 59 sized frame. All depends on how I want to go about riding. Most bike shops fit to the competitive fit unless you're looking for a leisurely bike though. Each one has it's pros/cons. If you want to use the fit calculator:<br /><br />http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO&INTRO_LINK=NOREDIR<br /><br />Hope that helps someone.The Sophisticated Cyclerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07619481287876849376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-70696212344146268882011-04-13T19:20:15.619-04:002011-04-13T19:20:15.619-04:00V - I have a Sam H. I was going to mention expand...V - I have a Sam H. I was going to mention expanded geometry, but couldn't recall what it was called. I'm 5'8" and have average proportions.Areveehttp://twitter.com/ransomvnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-7244249695638472182011-04-13T18:53:09.320-04:002011-04-13T18:53:09.320-04:00Bike fit is always on my mind (just like Wiilie Ne...Bike fit is always on my mind (just like Wiilie Nelson sang, or was it Elvis?). I've had professional bike fits and all my bikes are different sizes. Some days they all feel perfect. Other days, I wonder what I should tweak next, or if I should have gone with a larger frame size. But, fundmentally what it comes down to for me is if the fit is going to cause any injury (I would be devasted if I couldn't ride due to an injury). Whether it be an overuse injury due to the wrong fit, or a bike handling issue due to the bike frame being too large. So, as long as the comfort feels right and everything is tweaked perfectly so as to not cause injury, I'm good.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12235831374184428641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-72425187364616846012011-04-13T16:39:11.818-04:002011-04-13T16:39:11.818-04:00Spindizzy - That's a good point, that for casu...Spindizzy - That's a good point, that for casual use the fit matters less. I take this bike on fairly strenuous 30 mile fixed gear rides though, which for me at least is not casual. I have it as my absolute goal by the end of this summer to cut down my number of personal roadbikes to 2, so we'll see. Either way, I will most likely keep the Moser's frame as a keepsake, while using the wheels and components on another bike.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-84000305823781798792011-04-13T15:33:09.014-04:002011-04-13T15:33:09.014-04:00The difference between the total distance from the...The difference between the total distance from the seat post to the handlebars on the two bikes is NOT 3cm - it's 30mm. :-0 Would you really notice a 1cm change? Oh yeah! Would you notice a 1mm change? I know I would. Would you notice a 1micron change? uh. prob'ly not. I'm suggesting that the appropriate unit is the mm. The difference between the two bikes is 30 noticeable changes. I'd say that's a lot.Ira Kinronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-91754549372965877882011-04-13T15:11:55.487-04:002011-04-13T15:11:55.487-04:00I don't doubt that baseline fit preferences ch...I don't doubt that baseline fit preferences change over the (many)years if we assume the initial fits are "correct." I think, though that this be more a case of the mind/brain/body system adapting to what was presented to it for one year. Put another way, if you had both bikes and alternated between the two daily, your mind/brain/body would eventually figure out: "Okay, it's Monday and Monday is Moser day so we adapt accordingly; okay, it's Tuesday and Tuesday is Bianchi day so we adapt accordingly" and so on." It's not unthinkable given that humans adapt. Something for psychologists to study and philosophers to fret?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-50791900925017506492011-04-13T15:06:09.427-04:002011-04-13T15:06:09.427-04:00velcro?
badmother.velcro?<br /><br />badmother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-40050256518475591472011-04-13T13:34:47.742-04:002011-04-13T13:34:47.742-04:00I switch between several different bikes (one for ...I switch between several different bikes (one for rain, one for sun, one for winds above 8mph and finally one for days when Mars is in perfect alignment) and all of them seem to require a bit of time for my body to remember them and feel confident. They are all adjusted correctly for my body and size as well. For me it's the handlebar style. It takes a good mile or two under my belt to feel like I am not going to spontaneously dive into a curb or something (not that this has ever happened, but I wouldn't ask around to much because it would be embarrassing to my fragile ego).<br /><br />And just to state it. I really do love your site. Who knew I would start out my mornings reading about bicycles when I was just a little lad. Mother would be proud.Mickey Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13165770717857426431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-1204728223321094842011-04-13T13:16:25.115-04:002011-04-13T13:16:25.115-04:00Glue?Glue?Peppy (the amazing basket-weaving cat)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-8676870033826112712011-04-13T13:03:00.063-04:002011-04-13T13:03:00.063-04:00Kevin - Thanks for commenting, I appreciate your f...Kevin - Thanks for commenting, I appreciate your feedback.<br /><br />Couple of things...<br /><br />For me, points 3 and 5 almost always conflict. Normally, I find that I have to push the saddle back at least 1-2cm in order to take the weight off my hands on a bike with drop bars - which slackens the seat tube angle and makes the bike less aggressive. This has applied to every vintage bike I've tried as well, with the exception of the 1983 Bianchi racing bike. I believe I am maintaining the line of the seat tube on that one, and my hands feel fine. Is there a way to summarise what it is about a bike's frame construction that makes it possible vs impossible to achieve points 3 and 5 simultaneously?<br /><br />Also, re point 2 - I slide off the saddle if the nose points down. How is this usually prevented?Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-26525457817049335832011-04-13T12:57:10.101-04:002011-04-13T12:57:10.101-04:00Ground Round Jim said...
"do you know what yo...<i>Ground Round Jim said...<br />"do you know what you just wrote?"</i><br /><br />No idea : ) That damned NyQuil again.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-65805294702682669202011-04-13T12:55:59.218-04:002011-04-13T12:55:59.218-04:00OMG. We have ignition.OMG. We have ignition.Ground Round Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103163385322185034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-36018099870528488252011-04-13T12:42:42.486-04:002011-04-13T12:42:42.486-04:00I am not surprised that you are finding the smalle...I am not surprised that you are finding the smaller bike less than perfect after getting on the bigger bike, but you are learning these things over time and you can't know what you don't know. <br /><br />I have not found that people's true position changes that much over time, but we all have a cognitive bias that overlays what we think "right" is. I know that very few, if any, of the readers of this blog are in a position or even have the interest in getting a positioning on the level that my custom bicycle design studio provides, so my comments may not be perceived as being appropriate. Nevertheless, I do not think it is trial and error, but I do feel that many sacred cows exist in fit land. <br /><br />What I have found is the following. <br /><br />1) The saddle should be as high as possible, but not too high, with a stable ankle implied.<br />2) The saddle should be as nose down as possible without being too low.<br />3) The saddle should be as far forward as possible, allowing glutes and quads to balance the load, the lumbar spine to be stable and the maximum power delivery still possible.<br />4) The hoods and the drops should be equally comfortable and there should be no feeling of instability in the lumbar spine.<br />5) Excessive weight should not be in the hands. The hands are for steering, not to hold ones-self up on the bike. That is what the lumbar spine is for.<br /><br />Most modern road bicycles are not capable of this position. Many vintage road bikes are. In performance land, I believe that Eddy Merckx had positioning down perfectly and his ability to win races and recover quickly to do so again was proof.<br /><br />Finally, people who want to ride comfortably and efficiently will learn much from the racers of Eddy's day. Modern racers have much different bodies and since they ride bikes given to them by sponsors, they will have little to offer the student of positioning.Kevin Saunders / KGS Bikeshttp://blog.kgsbikes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-18080930506765145522011-04-13T12:37:49.630-04:002011-04-13T12:37:49.630-04:00That last line made me spew my coffee--do you know...That last line made me spew my coffee--do you know what you just wrote?Ground Round Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103163385322185034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-82575898375159585392011-04-13T12:32:45.547-04:002011-04-13T12:32:45.547-04:00To tell the truth, I am not sure I would have writ...To tell the truth, I am not sure I would have written that post, were I not under the influence of NyQuil and other medicaments. In "real life" I can't even say "crotch" without laughing. Still, crotches are our friends, hot buttons or not.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89837974750344026462011-04-13T12:26:41.603-04:002011-04-13T12:26:41.603-04:00Please note I do not take a stand one way or anoth...Please note I do not take a stand one way or another on vaginas and am, in fact, impressed with the thoroughness of the post on women's issues of the, uh, tropics. <br /><br />V had asked what isn't a hot button topic and I said vaginas were definitely a HBT. But really they aren't. They're a Hot topic, not a HBT. <br /><br />But because I'm writing in defense of my non-stance on vaginas it IS a HBT...Ground Round Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103163385322185034noreply@blogger.com