tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post1342922430840459446..comments2024-03-18T08:41:35.438-04:00Comments on Lovely Bicycle!: Felled No More: Wheel Lessons in Crosswind Resistance Velouriahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-55872819068234967522016-11-24T04:11:50.218-05:002016-11-24T04:11:50.218-05:00A pleasure to have found your blog once again afte...A pleasure to have found your blog once again after our discussion's Constance. As someone who builds wheels for a living some may think that I might know everything there is to know about wheels: I'm glad to say that I'm really enjoying your wheel (and other) posts whilst gleaning important new bits of knowledge along the way: thumbs up from a 'pro'!Ryan@http://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-49328614597276285992016-10-30T19:35:37.823-04:002016-10-30T19:35:37.823-04:00I grew up and rode for decades in North Texas, whe...I grew up and rode for decades in North Texas, where the wind is quite strong, and it's always there.<br /><br />Mavic MA40 rims (I think that's the right model number) and 32 or 36 round double butted spokes were always the choice. I never noticed any susceptibility to crosswinds of the wheels compared to that of my body.<br /><br />You don't build wheels for the average load, you build wheels for the worst case impact. I would not recommend less than 32 spokes (3-cross) for any non-racer except for the real flyweights. A potato chipped wheel is one of the very few bicycle failures that can pretty much stop you without the possibility of a kludge fix to get home. I would suggest that your "overbuilt" wheels were actually about appropriate.<br /><br />Radial spoking shows a lack of understanding of the mechanics of the spoked wheel. <br /><br />It is not difficult, just tedious, to build your own wheel. I have done it many times.<br /><br />I am still riding on a front wheel I bought, pre-built to the above specifications, in 1988 or thereabouts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89463701743485241152016-10-29T12:13:37.551-04:002016-10-29T12:13:37.551-04:00Follow-up question! What about "pointy" ...Follow-up question! What about "pointy" rims, eg: H+Son Archetype? Not rounded, not squared off...Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704656125516407892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-83045703634227508032016-10-28T21:16:39.774-04:002016-10-28T21:16:39.774-04:00V, I've alway (since your first blog year) lov...V, I've alway (since your first blog year) loved that you give the feeling of the experien e then quatify it. That is reality. A parallel is the music of Bjork. <br /><br />Anyways, having Open Pros on my bikes when I lived in TX and OK made me learn about riding in big wind. As a sailor, I knew about apparent wind angles, which is where bike wheels spend a lot of time. <br /><br />Wish I had the link, but eventually I read about rim design in regard to apparent wing angle. One of the very best rims designed for wind angles according to the article was the HED Belgium. I got a set, the LT, built with Sapium Xray thin bladed spokes. Excellent build quality, even tension. Ride smoothness is impressive. About same weight as Open Pro onDura Ace hubs. Yet riding mtn passes in strong fall winds, the HED never faltered. It is the rim shape, perhaps combined with spoke shape, yet sublime none the less. It's the rim shape! Roadscrape88https://www.blogger.com/profile/04916734864945028329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-47038367228830103912016-10-28T13:42:27.120-04:002016-10-28T13:42:27.120-04:00Yes, I'm afraid so : (((Yes, I'm afraid so : (((Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-89745701627168078592016-10-28T13:41:54.283-04:002016-10-28T13:41:54.283-04:00Thank you, C. I do need a better method of organis...Thank you, C. I do need a better method of organising this site. <br /><br />And I am cheered to know there is a lovelybike.blogspot.co.nz : )Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-13095880553480146472016-10-28T13:38:52.154-04:002016-10-28T13:38:52.154-04:00Nevermind the wheels. Am I the only one who gets a...Nevermind the wheels. Am I the only one who gets and enjoys V's musical references?! <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-62440297791033909492016-10-28T05:15:23.375-04:002016-10-28T05:15:23.375-04:00As I read this, the rather unique service you offe...As I read this, the rather unique service you offer the cycling world became apparent. You are reverse engineering the bicycle from an empirical rather than scientific or engineering methodology. This is rare and very helpful.<br /><br />A while back* you suggested to Bella Ciao it might be interesting to change the trail of the front fork. In writing on this, you presented an understanding of how trail affects ride... not in theory, but in reporting real-life experience with a real bike. Sure, others write on such subjects, but not in a manner that is easily comprehensible by the amateur rider.<br /><br />You wrote similar articles on different tyres noting how Schwalbe Delta Cruisers were a good all-around solution for the city rider. Now, again empirically you call attention to how wheel profile affects performance in strong crosswinds. <br /><br />There probably was a time when such subjects were common knowledge among bike makers and town & country riders... I think for example of the tensile steel properties that appear to have been lost when Raleigh wound down its Nottingham factory and the men who made the bikes gradually made their way toward retirement homes and the grave. <br /><br />Today, the great frustration comes because bicycle manufacturers seem to be chasing the trends rather than mastering the engineering. There are pockets of knowledge left, especially in Europe, but few who bring these engineering elements to a wider readership.<br /><br />I have a suggestion. Perhaps you might consider consolidating these empirical findings in a section of your blog, and upgrade the articles with examples, such as the cross section of the kind of wheel you find works in wind, and a list of the wheels you find that tend to work. It might be nothing more than adding links under your current Geometry and Fit heading (which has no links yet), although you might want to rename it.<br /><br />*http://lovelybike.blogspot.co.nz/2015/07/choose-your-fork-adventure.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06458386943967212303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-40956879234635056252016-10-27T21:18:30.148-04:002016-10-27T21:18:30.148-04:00Yup. Recently acquired a Cervelo R3 disc which com...Yup. Recently acquired a Cervelo R3 disc which comes with HED Ardennes Plus GP wheels. Got to test out how crosswind friendly they were during http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-10/victoria-strong-winds-thousands-still-without-power/7917278<br /><br />So much nicer than my previous windy challenges :-). The disc doesn't seem to hurt either, I guess it's so close to the centre of the wheel, any wind that doesn't go through the cooling holes pushes evenly and predictably.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312344589433769197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-69316710356879070602016-10-25T12:11:18.321-04:002016-10-25T12:11:18.321-04:00Velocity Quill has a nice rounded blunt shape with...Velocity Quill has a nice rounded blunt shape with no edges visible or felt, even with machined sidewalls. Comes in polished silver and flat black. <br /><br />Wouldn't the pronounced V edge in the center (or off-center) of the Velocity A23 indicate it would catch wind the way Velouria has found? From her experience reported here I'm not assuming the only edge that counts is an edge near a brake track. A prominent centered edge seems likely to catch wind too. <br /><br />One consideration that's not necessarily included in Velouria's excellent informal testing was the way the tire profile interacts with the rim profile. The wheels she compared all had a tire about the same width as the rim or only a little wider. I wonder how a rim profile responds with a wider taller tire like a Hetre or Compass BabyShoePass? Does the greater surface area of the bigger tire make rim shape less important since it's a smaller proportion of the wheel profile, or do rim edges catch wind regardless of tire size? I'm inclined to think the tire/rim act more as a single shape in a cross wind.<br /><br />--Mitch <br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300113498643722546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-39071240820971807542016-10-23T09:11:31.963-04:002016-10-23T09:11:31.963-04:00There are a lot more rims that pass the test than ...There are a lot more rims that pass the test than fail the test. There are a handful of rims that sort of fall in between, for example a Velocity A23 kinda sorta has edges and the machined sidewall version is edgier than the regular. For that handful of rims it's a judgment call and a more testing required situation. Look around the web, profile drawings of any rim you are considering are not hard to find. Or look at what your friend are riding. <br /><br />If your daily riding routinely places you in potentially dangerous situations you want more steering stability. Move the saddle back, shorten the stem. Reduce your own aero profile with snug fitting clothes rather than sails.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-78785302564990122242016-10-22T22:57:57.801-04:002016-10-22T22:57:57.801-04:00Katrina with Al spokes are great, with two signifi...Katrina with Al spokes are great, with two significant caveats (or three if you count the freehub bushing wear as a problem): 1. they are round, true, durable until the spokes start fatiguing, as they will under heavier, high mileage riders.2. they are not especially aerodynamically efficient, and they are the scariest 30mm deep wheels I have ridden when presented with gusty crosswinds. <br /><br />The Wolber Profil rims work much better. In 24 spokes, and reasonable spoke tension, they did not crack for lighter riders. They do wear the brake pads oddly....<br /><br />Best,<br />Will<br />William M deRossetWMdeRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15531125254328045995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-75931982663900370322016-10-22T18:49:21.351-04:002016-10-22T18:49:21.351-04:00About everyone I know who has had Ksyrium has had ...About everyone I know who has had Ksyrium has had problems. I do not work in a bike shop, have seen at least a dozen with rims cracked wide open. In earlier years I had two wheels myself, one given to me by a disgruntled owner, the other garbage picked. Each needed a new spoke. Since the spoke/nipple/wrench configuration has changed a dozen times it was completely impossible to get a spoke. Mavic did not think older wheels should be repaired and I will now agree with that. Sometimes something as simple as giving one spoke one-eighth of a turn to bring the wheel back to true just cannot be accomplished. And you wouldn't want to look inside the hubs.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-11532995119780665812016-10-22T06:35:43.185-04:002016-10-22T06:35:43.185-04:00I've just found that DT Swiss RR411 and R460 h...I've just found that DT Swiss RR411 and R460 have a "rounded" profile (a pity they are not in silver). They might result in a nice clincher with some level of "cross wind" resistance. According to your tacit knowledge (feeling), what do you think about their shape?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06817713470368712197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-72280123701423004592016-10-22T06:21:59.791-04:002016-10-22T06:21:59.791-04:00My impression is, that the main draw of Ksyriums i...My impression is, that the main draw of Ksyriums is their durability / to weight / to cost ratio. Big guys who would break other wheels in the same weight category can ride Ksyriums. They can even ride them over potholes. Remember also that while we think of them as modern, these wheels have been around for a while now. Guys around here ride "vintage" Ksyriums, and they can't break them even if they need an excuse to get new wheels. <br /><br />Yes, the wheels look ungainly, are no doubt made awkwardly as you describe, and the spokes are weird. Yes, if you break some, depending on where you live repair could take a while and involve special ordering. However the Ksyrium owners I know would argue that to be a moot point, considering how seldom this has actually happens to them (i.e. never). <br /><br />Personally I no longer use Ksyriums, and do not plan to go back to them. But for a lot of riders who want strong modern wheels off the shelf (or secondhand), they make sense, especially considering the cost. Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-55132508761212059872016-10-22T06:01:59.669-04:002016-10-22T06:01:59.669-04:00I haven't spied that many, but will try to put...I haven't spied that many, but will try to put something together. Email me, or check this comment again in a few days.Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-77007344991946194072016-10-21T23:15:49.851-04:002016-10-21T23:15:49.851-04:00Well, now I need to find a well-profiled 32h rim t...Well, now I need to find a well-profiled 32h rim to lace up to some waiting hubs. We get some damn windy weather here and lots of big trucks, and I would greatly appreciate any crosswind cutting edge... Would love to see a shortlist of rims you've spied that fall in line with the profile you've described!Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704656125516407892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-69914053618278134852016-10-21T14:41:34.408-04:002016-10-21T14:41:34.408-04:00Fairings, that's a rabbit hole he might never ...Fairings, that's a rabbit hole he might never crawl back out of. Lot's of benefit to be had with perhaps even more hassle.<br /><br /> Better to just content himself with the dopey tricks the modern Bicycle Factory calls aerodynamic innovation and avoid the possibility of ending up riding around the neighborhood in a suit of Mylar Armour fashioned after a Codfish.<br /><br />Fairings, heheheh...<br /><br />SpindizzyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-40574177439016988412016-10-21T14:29:16.630-04:002016-10-21T14:29:16.630-04:00A Tri bike, or any other bike that stretches you W...A Tri bike, or any other bike that stretches you WAYYY out over the front wheel(Specially' if your saddle is far forward like is the fashion on TT and Tri Bikes these days)is going to be unpleasant descending in the best of times. Going downhill with the bike a-trailing behind your behind in a crosswind is just a good way of illustrating why that sort of set-up is ideal only for the Laboratory Experiment that is Triathlon.<br /><br />Spindizzy<br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-26201457751178757222016-10-21T12:03:52.780-04:002016-10-21T12:03:52.780-04:00OK, maybe I should have written "scientific&q...OK, maybe I should have written "scientific" in quotes. But it was close enough for me, the non-scientist.MT cyclisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17451590809473759574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-61077715884179993292016-10-21T11:14:13.059-04:002016-10-21T11:14:13.059-04:00Steve
With regard to your points 1). I built and ...Steve<br /><br />With regard to your points 1). I built and used that very same rim in 20 hole. Back then I weighed around 80 to 85kg. Used up two front rims like that, the first died when the brake track wore through. The second went 10,000 miles or so before I gave it to a junior racer. He won his next three races. That rim later died in a crash. As for cracking, there are washers inside Velourias rims. Excellent 70 year old washers from Nottingham. I just wouldn't build a non-ferruled rim without washers. As for the drive side rear, I fundamentally disapprove of 11speed wheels. The rear rim in the set is current production, as an Araya ADX would be hopeless for a modern rear. All I can say is that wheel should be better than most.<br /><br />2) The front wheel was pulled to 80 or 90 kgpf. A lot of vintage wheels are so loose you can't even get a reading. They work anyway, although I wouldn't want to take them down a mountain at speed. The former prevalence of very loose spokes is the <br />reason we have 36 spoke wheels. You are correct that most of the comfort is coming from the tires. Still, the wheel is old school enough to be missing the sharp edge of modern cartwheels.<br /><br />3) I will just agree with you about the total weirdness of Ksyrium wheels. Astonishing that no one even notices that big fat square hump in the rim at each spoke. A big square sharp cornered hump 18 times around a rim is not good aerodynamically. That giant sharp edged spoke nipple is pretty horrible aerodynamically as well. And you can slice your fingers on them. Mavic makes those rim humps by extruding a very thick rim and then doing an extraordinary amount of machining. Given that Mavic is notorious for their erratic extrusions the extra machining does not inspire confidence. All that work to accomplish the same thing I do with a washer. The new rims machine the hump until smooth and rather smaller, it is still a crazy amount of monkey motion to substitute for a washer. The only Mavic rims I want are SSC or the old ones with the diamond shaped decal and the brevetatto Longhi stamp.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-29492656780878569962016-10-21T09:07:37.823-04:002016-10-21T09:07:37.823-04:00The issue of what tools to carry is full of intere...The issue of what tools to carry is full of interesting possibilities. Do you carry for what's most likely to happen or what would be most disabling? If on a group ride, carry only the tools you (think you might) need or those which others might need too? To an extent it overlaps with the idea of self-sufficiency, also with maintenance and decisions of speed vs security; and a whole lot more! Some carry nothing at all, but there is also a corroborated example of one rider welding his frame together mid-audax. No, he wasn't actually carrying a welder, he got it done at a garage, and it involved a whole string of lucky coincidences such as this (car) garage happening to have, somehow, a crank-removing tool!Bmblbzzznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-31343004085621341912016-10-21T08:57:57.515-04:002016-10-21T08:57:57.515-04:00Ooh I think I may need a valium before responding ...Ooh I think I may need a valium before responding to that : ) But yeah... Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-83032931597495605592016-10-21T08:39:28.512-04:002016-10-21T08:39:28.512-04:0024? Damn, should have gone to win instead of each ...24? Damn, should have gone to win instead of each way...I have a 20-spoke wheel in the loft almost identical to that. And yes, it has the cracks. It will probably end up looking like this:<br /><br />http://www.sentient-entity.toucansurf.com/travelshots/technical/anodising_example.jpg<br /><br />Curved edges then. Will keep an eye out...<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br />s.<br />Steve Pellsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6467858377106451384.post-42016418268144266022016-10-21T08:37:13.507-04:002016-10-21T08:37:13.507-04:00Not to be pedantic (she said, before proceeding to...Not to be pedantic (she said, before proceeding to be pedantic), but this is at best a quasi-scientific approach. Or more realistically, a smattering of anecdotal evidence. It is enough to suggest that a scientific study ought to be done though, in a controlled and systematic manner involving testing wheels that differ in only one feature at a time, and multiple testers. It would be great if an institution with the resources to carry out such a trial, would. Velouriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359329171411037482noreply@blogger.com